Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

[Dan]

Question to those sidemount tank divers. Some of the liveaboard boat have platform as high as 7-8 foot drop into the water. How do you jump into the water without slamming part of your body onto the tank? Would the side mounted tank be lowered separately after you get into the water, like some big camera rig and then clip the sidemount tank onto your BCD D-rings before descending? Even if for just simply back rolling from a skiff to 2 ft water surface behind you would be a problem with 40 cf (6L) on sidemount or sling, I would imagine. I see those sidemount-tank divers in cenote put their tanks while in the water that pretty much calm water, not in a wavy sea water surface, to avoid that problem.

If installing the sidemount tanks needs to be done while you are in the water, forget about drift diving or dive in swift current, when the captain / crew on board ask everyone to go go go quick one after another to avoid getting separated (blown away by the current) & doing negative entry in order to get to the bottom quickly together like those guys diving in Darwin site of Galápagos.

 

[Lorenzoid]

FWIW. True SM is more complicated then simply slinging a pony. It is a completely different system (not the best word but what I could think of at the moment) then single tank BM, not just an added piece of gear. It involves near gear, new procedures and a good deal new muscle memory. Doff and don is more involved and boat entry and exits can be more complex as well.

That sidemount is completely different and more complicated is what I was referring to when I mentioned "well-established configuration and procedures," and that is why it has seemed to me throughout this thread that if one's goal is true two-tank redundancy in a rec dive (not that I agree we should need it), "simply slinging a pony" may be a half-arsed solution to a problem that has already been addressed by sidemount in a fairly rigorous way. Few problems that are worth addressing are solved by "simply" doing something. Maybe slinging a pony is what I would call deceptively simple. Everyone agrees that a pony is only really effective if you practice using it--build that muscle memory. I'm sure there are other aspects to using a pony that should also be taken into account, but which perhaps not all divers who carry ponies do or have even given much thought to. If one truly wants a redundant tank and reg without the hassles (especially when traveling) of backmount, as opposed to just wanting to carry tech diving training wheels, then it seems to me that the more rigorous way--one that some pretty experienced people have already spent a lot of time establishing the procedures for and would be happy to train you in--is sidemount. Whether at home or on the road, at least it's not "gee, I think I'll sling a pony today because I might have an insta-buddy or need a 'stage'" (and maybe not on tomorrow's dive).

As for the donning and doffing complications, well, if we're already talking about slinging a 40 or even an 80, which involves some donning and doffing considerations, it's not THAT big a step up to sidemount. I would imagine that, like everything else, if it's what you do all the time, it becomes easier.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Question to those sidemount tank divers. Some of the liveaboard boat have platform as high as 7-8 foot drop into the water. How do you jump into the water without slamming part of your body onto the tank? Would the side mounted tank be lowered separately after you get into the water, like some big camera rig and then clip the sidemount tank onto your BCD D-rings before descending? Even if for just simply back rolling from a skiff to 2 ft water surface behind you would be a problem with 40 cf (6L) on sidemount or sling, I would imagine. I see those sidemount-tank divers in cenote put their tanks while in the water that pretty much calm water, not in a wavy sea water surface, to avoid that problem.

If installing the sidemount tanks needs to be done while you are in the water, forget about drift diving or dive in swift current, when the captain / crew on board ask everyone to go go go quick one after another to avoid getting separated (blown away by the current) & doing negative entry in order to get to the bottom quickly together like those guys diving in Darwin site of Galápagos.

It's a non-issue. I've stepped off the bow of the Peace in the Channel Islands with my sidemount tanks clipped in place and there was no slamming. That's a good drop of several feet, and at the time into some fairly rough conditions. I was diving heavier, steel 100 cylinders at the time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That sidemount is completely different and more complicated is what I was referring to when I mentioned "well-established configuration and procedures," and that is why it has seemed to me throughout this thread that if one's goal is true two-tank redundancy in a rec dive (not that I agree we should need it), "simply slinging a pony" may be a half-arsed solution to a problem that has already been addressed by sidemount in a fairly rigorous way. Few problems that are worth addressing are solved by "simply" doing something. Maybe slinging a pony is what I would call deceptively simple. Everyone agrees that a pony is only really effective if you practice using it--build that muscle memory. I'm sure there are other aspects to using a pony that should also be taken into account, but which perhaps not all divers who carry ponies do or have even given much thought to. If one truly wants a redundant tank and reg without the hassles (especially when traveling) of backmount, as opposed to just wanting to carry tech diving training wheels, then it seems to me that the more rigorous way--one that some pretty experienced people have already spent a lot of time establishing the procedures for and would be happy to train you in--is sidemount. Whether at home or on the road, at least it's not "gee, I think I'll sling a pony today because I might have an insta-buddy or need a 'stage'" (and maybe not on tomorrow's dive).

As for the donning and doffing complications, well, if we're already talking about slinging a 40 or even an 80, which involves some donning and doffing considerations, it's not THAT big a step up to sidemount. I would imagine that, like everything else, if it's what you do all the time, it becomes easier.

Sidemounting's not really all that complicated. It's just different. And once you've done it a few times and established a routine the hardest part is usually accommodating a dive boat that wasn't built for the wider profile you're going to present as you try negotiating through a gate with your tanks on. When I first started diving sidemount I tried various approaches ... putting on both tanks in the water, entering with one tank and putting on the second in the water, and finally just clipping in and stepping off the boat. The "best" approach often depends as much on the boat configuration as it does what you're used to. Too much is made of muscle memory ... often the best approach is to use the muscle memory between your ears and doing what makes sense for the circumstances. Like most things diving, take it slow and methodical to avoid neglecting something potentially important. Once in the water, sidemount just feels more natural (to me anyway) than backmount, and it's not particularly difficult ... you just have to remember to switch regs once in a while to keep your gas supply balanced. Other than that, it's just diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Coztick]

I will mostly combine sm with a pony by clipping an 80 on the left and my 13 on the right for a simple drift dive if I don't expect to need the extra gas.

 

[uncfnp]

That sidemount is completely different and more complicated is what I was referring to when I mentioned "well-established configuration and procedures," and that is why it has seemed to me throughout this thread that if one's goal is true two-tank redundancy in a rec dive (not that I agree we should need it), "simply slinging a pony" may be a half-arsed solution to a problem that has already been addressed by sidemount in a fairly rigorous way. Few problems that are worth addressing are solved by "simply" doing something. Maybe slinging a pony is what I would call deceptively simple. Everyone agrees that a pony is only really effective if you practice using it--build that muscle memory. I'm sure there are other aspects to using a pony that should also be taken into account, but which perhaps not all divers who carry ponies do or have even given much thought to. If one truly wants a redundant tank and reg without the hassles (especially when traveling) of backmount, as opposed to just wanting to carry tech diving training wheels, then it seems to me that the more rigorous way--one that some pretty experienced people have already spent a lot of time establishing the procedures for and would be happy to train you in--is sidemount. Whether at home or on the road, at least it's not "gee, I think I'll sling a pony today because I might have an insta-buddy or need a 'stage'" (and maybe not on tomorrow's dive).

As for the donning and doffing complications, well, if we're already talking about slinging a 40 or even an 80, which involves some donning and doffing considerations, it's not THAT big a step up to sidemount. I would imagine that, like everything else, if it's what you do all the time, it becomes easier.

I have slung 13s, 19s, 30s and 40s. I have traveled by air with 13s (not on any airline that restricts weight to the level reported by some here on SB). I have limited experience with SM but have dove SM with steel 80s, 100s and Al80s. So I do have some experience to work with.

For me, and I can only speak for me, it is much “simplier” to sling a pony then to learn and equip for SM, especially if you want to do sidemount with “well-established configuration and procedures," (and here is another factor-sidemount is still an evolving art and there are multiple established procedures). Just a few considerations, different harness and wing, preference for swivel firsts, long hose and bungeed seconds, a slightly different air share donation procedure, actively managing two seconds and two tanks during every dive with more gas management considerations. And rental tanks not set up for sm, that means rigging every tank and not having right and left hand valves. Yes its doable but not ideal. And doning/doffing, entry/exit is significantly more complex then just clipping on a small pony.

So yes, I call diving with a pony simple, especially when it is only for emergency redundancy. The only instance when I think going sidemount, just for emergency redundancy, for an open water recreational diver tops a simple slung pony, that idealy will never get used, is a diver that travels extensively, has baggage limitations and routinely dives with two al80’s

 

[Lorenzoid]

Well, I guess the bottom line is that I am skeptical of things that are "simpler" being "better." As I alluded to, I have to wonder if carrying a pony leads to complacency precisely because there are NOT so many established procedures as there are for sidemount. (As for the procedures "evolving," why not pick ONE and stick with it? That sidemount is in a state of flux is one reason I plan to stick with backmount for the foreseeable future, but that's another story.) You just carry the pony until if and when there is an event that you perceive as an emergency, when with sidemount you could be so much more ready to deal with such an event that it would hardly be an "emergency." (As the tec divers say, the only true emergency is having nothing to breathe.) In other words, it seems to me that if tec/cave divers rely on sidemount to deal with what a rec diver would call an emergency, then it is surely a well thought-out system that would work just as well as it does for tec divers to deal with a rec diver's demand for "emergency" redundancy. Yes, I mean it could be considered overkill--I like that.

The left and right-hand valves are something I hadn't thought of. So rental Al 80s would NOT be ideal for sidemount. There goes that.

 

[boulderjohn]

The left and right-hand valves are something I hadn't thought of. So rental Al 80s would NOT be ideal for sidemount. There goes that.

Left and right hand valves are ideal for sidemount, but they aren't mandatory. When I took my sidemount in an overhead environment course, the instructor, a well-known sidemount diver, said that when he is in a situation where those are not available, he just reverses the regulator setup for the left side.

 

[MichaelMc]

Just a few considerations, different harness and wing, preference for swivel firsts, long hose and bungeed seconds, a slightly different air share donation procedure, actively managing two seconds and two tanks during every dive with more gas management considerations. And rental tanks not set up for sm, that means rigging every tank and not having right and left hand valves. Yes its doable but not ideal.

If you’re coming from recreational secondary donate, it is several changes. If you come from primary donate long hose, you likely have a 5th port reg that rotates. And rotating refs are not essential, just nice. If you necklace the left tank, the main in water changes seem to be knowing to not donate the reg in your mouth if it is the necklace, and tank switching.

The tank switching may be a pain, but doing it often on every dive makes it very likely a failure of one will prompt a fluid shift to the other, as opposed to a less fluid switch to a never used pony. Granted you can still necklace a pony.

But the real benefit for travel is you can dive with any two tanks. Sidemount seems a nice way to dive two loose tanks when they might be any of 80/80, 40/40, or 80/19.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The left and right-hand valves are something I hadn't thought of. So rental Al 80s would NOT be ideal for sidemount. There goes that.

When I travel and plan to dive sidemount I will ask if they have sidemount tanks, and if not then I just bring a valve with me for the right-side cylinder, and swap it out at the place where I rent the tanks (either boat or dive shop), use it like that for the duration of my stay, and swap back to their valve at the end of the trip. So far it's worked out well ... it's more a matter of communicating in advance that it's what you'd want to do. I've yet to run into any issues with doing it that way, and the valves are reasonably inexpensive and don't take up much weight or space in your luggage.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)