Where to get VIP stickers

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My problem is the TDI stickers is they cost Twice what the generic stickers cost and are just as generic (no Shop name or Inspector number etc). So if the shop I am getting fills at has any question about a generic sticker I will show my cert card if needed and answer questions if that isnt good enough then I will take my business elsewhere. I have never had a sticker questioned by the way.

Even if you put your cert details on the generic stickers they are technically not acceptable. Which was really my point. I am will to bet the vast majority of the VIP stickers out there are not acceptable for many reasons. The PSI and TDI/SDI are acceptable. Which why I said if you can not get them, do not waste money on buying the generic stickers just print them with some other equality wrong details as they will likely be accepted as the scuba industry has not been following their own industry standards for a while.

Bring a photo of a PSI or TDI/SDI VIP sticker to a printer and they will make as many as you like...Jim..

Do not directly copy them because that would be a copyright violation. Hint the written content is not copyrighted just the manner in which the written content is printed.


I'm a TDI Vis instructor and I use the generic stickers I pick up off of Amazon.

Pete do you explain to your students why some shops may not accept the generic stickers???
 
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...do you explain to your students why some shops may not accept the generic stickers???
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@Scared Silly :
Real slow please, because I am very obviously misunderstanding or misinterpreting or just plain not quite yet understanding something:
If a person coming in for fill with an in hydro tank, with a generic VIP sticker, with his name and VIP inspector ID on it and also brings his non-expired, valid VIP credentials (card), why is it that some shops would refuse to fill the tank?
 
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Even if you put your cert details on the generic stickers they are technically not acceptable. Which was really my point. I am will to bet the vast majority of the VIP stickers out there are not acceptable for many reasons. The PSI and TDI/SDI are acceptable. Which why I said if you can not get them, do not waste money on buying the generic stickers just print them with some other equality wrong details as they will likely be accepted as the scuba industry has not been following their own industry standards for a while.
"Not acceptable" for what purpose and by whom? I'm no dive pro and I've only been diving for a handful of years, but I've seen more varieties of VIP stickers than I have brands of regulators. I think that industry standard you're talking about is not all that standard in the industry.

@2airishuman If it were me, I'd start with one of the vip stickers you've got as a concept and design your own image. I've had custom stickers printed with my name and address which I keep on my scuba tanks. They still look okay after a year of diving (mostly) salt water. I generally scrape and replace them annually so I can be sure there's no corrosion under the sticker.

I went with "4x4 bumper stickers" from buildasign.com They cost $2.79 each or cheaper if you order 5 (or more) at a time.
 
But a vis isn't going to prevent this. That's the problem. You could get a bad fill on the first pump out of vis. You're relying on your pre-dive check to catch that.

The issue is that a vis is literally ONLY good between the time the inspector spins the valve back on and the first time you pump gas in the bottle. Once it's hooked up to something, all bets are off. A vis isn't going to catch something like that, the diver will when their gas tastes like oil or they get a CO hit at depth, etc., and then they take the tank in for service. The issues that a vis WILL catch preventatively do not occur fast enough to require a 1 year recertification. The rest of the issues you will have with a tank are pretty damn instantaneous and are not preventable with yearly vis, so what's the point?

I get a vis when a tank gets hydro'd, and gets a vis when something happens like I dump gas to 0. No sense doing it any more frequently unless something has happened that could compromise the tank.

Here are some things that reconcile it for me
I cant show you the standards for it but I had it at one time

First vis is good for a max of one year. They are done at yearly intervals if the tank if filled 2 or less times a week. if 4 times a week every 6 months and quarterly if filled more often.
Opinion under the worst conditions of say never using the same fill station, the odds of getting a bad fill is much greater.
Things like pits are not a problem when found but under the worse condition of continuous bad fills at over presure etc there could be a failed tank in the 12- 24 month period.

Vis will tell you the overall health of the total of fill stations you are using. This includes repeated at sea fills form fill stations on dive boats, A little salt water and high pressure would speed up the minor flaws turning into failures on the tank walls. Absolute worse situation a tank with a pit exceeding x amount should be ok for say 2 years so you catch it at the (max one year) time frame. The tank should hold up safely for a year before the effects of bad fills makes the tank a liability for near failure. This is very much like the overfilling issue. You tank can hold 12,000 psi before one tank out of a hundred hundred tanks ruptures,,,,, so you use a 4x safety factor and set working presure to 1/4 that 12k burst psi.


Yes I think it is important to do anual VIS. Certainly i would not vis every 6 months if all i did was fresh water diving 4 times a week. There reaches a point where any further definition of vis criteria becomes useless as it can not be inforced. Imagine going for a fill and the FSO asking when if any time the tank has been in salt water after the last vis, and how many times it has been filled to since the last vis to dertermine if the vis date is still statistically saying it is safe to fill.


I look at a vis like i do a car inspection,,,,, If you have 3/32" of tread the tires are good to go. You leave it to the integrity of the driver to replace it when the wear calls for it. That tread depth could be good for 2-3 years depending on miles driven or it could be an indicator that you need to replace tires in next month after your finish an IE. 5k mile trip. Like tanks it much depends on the tire.

Given those premis's PSI says look for a reason to pass and not to fail. If; you are unsure if it is in a failing condition then you pass it and reevaluate it in future vis' till it is in a clearly failing condition. Tank destruction is at stake.
 
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If you dont know if a pit is too deep or not then it is a pass.

WOW! Why not just measure the depth of the pit and check the standards. If it is within tolerance then it is a pass, if it is outwith tolerance then it is a fail. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "I dunno, therefore it is a pass" is just extraordinary and renders a visual inspection meaningless.

I'm assuming that most people on here doing their own VIP wouldn't be so lax and that they also maintain appropriate calibrated thread gauges too.
 
WOW! Why not just measure the depth of the pit and check the standards. If it is within tolerance then it is a pass, if it is outwith tolerance then it is a fail. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "I dunno, therefore it is a pass" is just extraordinary and renders a visual inspection meaningless.

I'm assuming that most people on here doing their own VIP wouldn't be so lax and that they also maintain appropriate calibrated thread gauges too.

It would be wonderful if it were that easy to measure and compare. comparing is easy the obtaining of precise measurements are not so easy.

In most cases you are not able to measure with precision the depth of a pit on the inside of the tank. In those cases it has to be a clear failure or it is a pass. each persons eyes are different. Shadows from the light etc make it difficult at times especialy to detect a prehaps .001 pit depth difference. much like holding a gap gage to a sparkplug when it either is snug or will not fit. The test somewhat for most measurements is.... is the problem such that with in a year it will make it a hazzard. If i cant tell between .059 and .061 depth with a feeler gage on a 18 inch rod it will get a pass. Is that even valid? One can argue that one part of the pit is ok and another part is deeper than allowed. another issue may be % of rust being more of less than 25%. ther is no way to say it is 24.3 percent. It is an estimate and no two persons will estimate tha same. Once again it is clearly bad or it is good. The outside of a tank is a bit different when it comes to measuring pits and gouges solely because of access and proximity to the area. For pit gages ( you would have to see them to understand them) it is a difficult tool to use inside the tank and make precision measurments. They amount to a wire coat hanger with a 90 bend in the end that has been sharpened to a point like a pencil sharpener and the cone has lines on it for various depths. Just how many likes can you get between .045 and .060. Much of it is guess like the penny in your tire tread. you know when it is bad but the point when it goes from good and bad is often difficult to tell. In short there is no way to put an accurate caliper to measure the wall thickness at the pit and compare it with the wall to determine an accurate thickness delta. Again the outside of the tank is a different animal. esxpecially when it comes to corrosion and pitting from tank bands. So IMO the real hazzard may be .120 but wth a large slop inserted the limit may be put at .060 so if it is a .90 and missred as a .060 it is not a threat. Also If I get a reason to condemn a tank , I am to take itto another inspector for a second opinion. If he gets a pass on what i think is iffy then it is a pass. All efforts are to give the benefit of the doubt to the pass side of things. Clear failure is clear failure.
 
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@Scared Silly :
Real slow please, because I am very obviously misunderstanding or misinterpreting or just plain not quite yet understanding something:
If a person coming in for fill with an in hydro tank, with a generic VIP sticker, with his name and VIP inspector ID on it and also brings his non-expired, valid VIP credentials (card), why is it that some shops would refuse to fill the tank?

Note the PSI and TDI/SDI VIP stickers are generic in that they only have the agency details on them. There is no shop/inspector details. The other stickers are also generic. The difference is that vast majority of the other stickers are not IMHO acceptable.

The specific scenario you note applies to someone who has actually done a VIP course. And that scenario well may not be a problem but a hassle. Been there done that when traveling with my cylinders which I inspect and utilize PSI stickers that have my inspector number on. I am not associated with a shop.

However, from what I am reading the OP does not have any formal training. Only informal. I not making making any judgement on their proficiency. I will go so far as to say based the OP posts I would say they are probably as competent if not more so than some who have formal training.

However, lacking the cert the OP may have issues. But, as I said though the scuba industry likes to tout their self regulating when it comes to cylinders it is pretty much lacking. Which is why if I were the OP I would not bother spending money on the Acme generic stickers and just print some custom stickers and tape them on. They will probably have just as much luck having those accepted as the Acme generic stickers.

"Not acceptable" for what purpose and by whom? I'm no dive pro and I've only been diving for a handful of years, but I've seen more varieties of VIP stickers than I have brands of regulators.

I would not be surprised by what you have seen. I too have seen many.

Here is but one example, read KWS's post above regarding how often cylinders should be visually inspected. It ranges from yearly to quarterly depending on usage. That is the scuba industry standard.

Yet look at the vast majority of the VIP stickers out there. What do they note about the date? Not that the inspection was done on a particular date but that it is valid for one year. No, is it is not valid for a year because the inspection interval ranges. That is not acceptable.

Then there are the ones that say a cylinder was inspected and found to be internally free of any significant rust and corrosion at this time. Great but aluminum cylinders do not rust they oxide. KWS brings up pits. I guess one could say that is corrosion. But what then again what is significant?? They cylinder could have other issues like external corrosion but that is okay according to the sticker cause they only checked for internal corrosion. The point is that the inspection criteria is unknown. That is not acceptable.

Now do not even get me started on the NIRTOX and being acceptable for premixed gas without being O2 clean as there is no standard for that. But people seem to be making them up. That is not acceptable.

I think that industry standard you're talking about is not all that standard in the industry.

Exactly ...
 
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Pretty interesting that little if any decrease in rupture pressure was noted for the internally corroded AL tanks. I didn't notice, but did they attempt to quantify the level of corrosion in any respect?

Is it notable that the 3AA LP steel tanks ruptured at only a little over 5000PSI? Thinking about all the tales of filling LP steel tanks to 4000+PSI... Has tank construction quality changed since then?

With respect to neck thread failure, the considerable force required to fail the tank neck threads was interesting. I wonder how that compares to the force needed to fail the brass valve?
 
A short synopsis of the history of VIP appears to be in order.....here goes


VIP began when a tank exploded in *Lomita Divers in Lomita California blowing the owner the late Bob Whitehead through a wall and breaking his leg.

The store was a member of SoCal based NASDS- at that time titled
National Association of Skin Diving stores , (According to John I was an NASDS instructor.. never issued me a card or a number but always certified my students for free - He was a dear long term friend...Later on after he retired and on the slippery slope to the big reef in the sky he would call my office to reminisce or ask a question and just moan a groan when the staff answered- the first time it upset the staff, later calls they would let him moan and groan before connecting to me)


The innovative late John Gaffney was the founder and driving force behind the NASDS and immediately recognized the tank filling hazard and the solution - an annual inspection with a non damaging symbol such as a sticker to indicate compliance .

It was an immediate hit with the SoCal Stores --they would be assured that they or their employees would be safe when filling tanks and it was a guaranteed source of a small annual income.

Soon John Gaffney changed the name of NASDS, began publishing a magazine and an association as the training arm .with a fledgling company called SCUBA Pro-- If you were NASDS certified you wore SCUBA Pro equipment - If you wore SCUBA Pro equipment you were NASDS certified (same marketing as John Cronin and PADI attempted, but failed over a decade later with the Aqua Lung centers- some of you may recall them?) ( @boulder john ?)

The program became a success with all dive shops - from Mom & Pop to the chain stores. It accomplished two things- created annual income, It eliminated the 70 and 72 CuFt tanks with their pipe threads and the WW11 surplus tanks with bushings ( Generally found in SoCal- I had my share)

At that time everyone was dangling a small pen light on a string to perfume the VIPS. Al Thompson who had founded Professional SCUBA Repair in North Hollywood California in the early 1960s developed and marketed a special light similar to the modern light strings that illuminated the entre cylinder. It was in popular use until he sold PSR to Sports Chalet who recently went bankrupt and closed all its stores. Al Thompson, who was one of the pioneers in SCUBA repair, is reportedly also in the big reef in the sky

The VIP was promoted by John and NASDS via the two very glossy interesting & exciting reading magazines Dive and Aquarius - If you read them or have copies you understand..

NASDS was sold John went into semi retirement and soon passed away (dang! I miss him - He was a dear crazy friend who lead the way for others to follow and emulate-)

The VIP migrated into a NASDS and local program-- One that was required but not promoted nationally. <<< I so vividly recall during that era when I was standing at the fill station of my diving buddy of 50 years, the late Ron Merker's shop The Aquatic Center when a very timid customer came in placed his tank on the fill station and inquired about some sort of an annual VIP - Ron Picked up the tank, stuck it with an abalone iron and said "Yep! High C, its ripe! your tank passes, that will be $5.00." Much to the astonishment of the customer who soon discovered the joke was at his expense. And so it was in those day of yesteryear>>>

Bill High was a pioneer NAUI instructor located in the pacific northwest. After or possibly before retirement he began looking for a diving activity to consume extra time and generate income --The late John Gaffney's NASDS VIP was the God send . It was expanded to a "Program" titled PSI complete with printed material, a completion certificate suitable for framing and even annual updates. PSI was promoted via DEMA. All to soon it became a requirement for all dive shop personnel - amd the "Authority " Whatever that implies

I have not had contact with Bill in a number of years, which was generally via NAUI activity ...It was reported he sold the PSI to an individual and has fully retired to the Seattle area. I would assume Bill would now be in his early to late 80s ( Time does have a way of fling by )

Now you know the history of the VIP and NASDS and PSI as recalled by one who was there and still up right with no mud in my face.

Back to the program and discussions

Sam Miller, III
*Lomita Divers may NOT be correct name - the store was sold several times with name changes with each sale
 
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https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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