Phosphoric acid w/ Blue Gold for reg cleaning

[cbrich]

Thanks for input. As for following what the manufacturers recommend, most manufacturers I am certified to service regulators say use GMC Ultrasonic Solution, and don’t dilute. Like I have stated multiple times, it 50-70% phosphoric acid, plus a surfactant. I am not pulling this from air, it’s per the MSDS. GMC Ultrasonic Solution is expensive, assuming you can find a dive shop to sell it, and the shipping is expensive.

Some people are using a diluted vinegar solution; so 5% acetic acid, and diluting even further. Dive shops use 50-70% phosphoric acid (GMC Ultrasonic Solution.)

Atomic says a 50/50 vinegar Solution or Blue Gold Solution. When I asked in the Atomic class, what is the concentration of acetic acid we should be using; 5% from the grocery store, or 99% from a chemical supplier. I was told, use the GMC Ultrasonic Solution. The look on his face was, I have no clue what you just asked.

Scubapro says GMC Ultrasonic Solution, because it’s the best at removing salt water deposits, and corrosion. Another regulator manufacturer (I don’t want to say brand) service class was a joke. They asked who has taken the Scubapro class, the folks that raised their hand was given a certificate of completion. They also said, I can’t teach you anything more than what Scubapro has taught you. Scubapro class was 3 days long, this manufacturers class was only a 1/2 day.

(I don't have any experience with Blue Gold.)

I've been using 8-10% phosphoric acid with just a little (same as above 1 teaspoon per quart) liquid soap (Dawn) for a few years now. It works just as well, if not better than 50/50 water vinegar and smells much better. I cannot say for sure, but it also seems to be less corrosive to chrome.

Here's a link to a vendor I've used:
950 ml of 85% Food Grade Phosphoric Acid | eBay

Here is a calculator as you probably won't be using it all at once.
Dilution Calculator - Molarity, Percent - PhysiologyWeb

I like what Couv is saying because it’s more inline with the GMC Ultrasonic Solution. GMC Ultrasonic Solution works. Have you tried not diluting the phosphoric acid down so much?

I would like to use the GMC Ultrasonic Solution but need a good source.

 

[cbrich]

Did you see this post from a related link. @rsingler uses the glycol as a “penetrant.”

I saw that, but he says glycol (antifreeze). I see that, I am thinking is he talking about ethylene glycol, aka car antifreeze, which is highly toxic. If it’s ethylene glycol, I don’t want to breathing on something cleaned in that.

 

[sh1513]

I never use anything acidic for reg cleaning, only Biox, it's not cheap but does the job very well.

Welcome to Biox Ltd Website - The future of Environmental Cleaning

 

[Couv]

I saw that, but he says glycol (antifreeze). I see that, I am thinking is he talking about ethylene glycol, aka car antifreeze, which is highly toxic. If it’s ethylene glycol, I don’t want to breathing on something cleaned in that.

Lawrence Factor Wash, Tumble Juice, etc. use a very small amount of propylene glycol in their formula. I believe it is a non-toxic cousin of ethylene glycol. But even so, a good rinse after cleaning should remove any traces of the cleaning agent.

 

[cbrich]

Lawrence Factor Wash, Tumble Juice, etc. use a very small amount of propylene glycol in their formula. I believe it is a non-toxic cousin of ethylene glycol. But even so, a good rinse after cleaning should remove any traces of the cleaning agent.

Did a Google for Lawrence Factor Wash, and pulled the SDS. Ingredients, Phosphoric Acid, 2-Butoxyethanol, and
Polyethylene glycol nonylphenyl ether. But you can see the main ingredients are the same as the GMC Ultrasonic Solution.

Just used vinegar (5% acetic acid) and dawn soap to service a B2 and lets just say not impressed, did not remove any of the corrosion, just made it soft. Ended up using 25% Citric Acid and Dawn soap to get the stubborn corrosion off, that work like a champ.

 

[spoolin01]

The main ingredients per the MSDS is 50-70% phosphoric acid, 10-20% 2-butoxyethanol.

Are you sure of this? I can't find this product or MSDS but the GMC Hydrosonic Solvent that they recommend for scuba is "mildly acidic" per the GMC site. 50% phosphoric acid is not mild by any stretch; pH <1.0 ! Maybe they mean total phosphate concentration in mildly acidic buffered composition, not phosphoric acid per se.

Did a Google for Lawrence Factor Wash, and pulled the SDS. Ingredients, Phosphoric Acid, 2-Butoxyethanol, and
Polyethylene glycol nonylphenyl ether. But you can see the main ingredients are the same as the GMC Ultrasonic Solution.

What pH is given (for either MSDS)?


ETA: looking at little at the two MSDS, I don't think you can believe the GMC, just too much conflicting/improbable data, though it does look like the data for concentrated phosphoric acid. At any rate, I wouldn't start at 50% or anywhere near it if you're brewing your own from H3PO4.

 

[Couv]

50% phosphoric acid is not mild by any stretch; pH <1.0 ! Maybe they mean total phosphate concentration in mildly acidic buffered composition, not phosphoric acid per se.

I have not been able to confirm the exact concentration of phosphoric acid in LFW or Tumble Juice, but I've heard that it it "can" be diluted as much as 8:1 If you know a retired chemist who could titrate a sample, that would be very handy.

I thin my solution down to 8.5%

An earlier post piqued my curiosity regarding a stronger solution, so just today I have 4 pieces of chrome plated brass I cut off of an old regulator yoke soaking in the following:
5% vinegar
2.5% vinegar (the infamous 50/50 most DIYers use)
85% phosphoric acid
8.5% (by weight) phosphoric acid

I'll give it a couple of weeks to work on the chrome and report back with the results.

Couv

 

[spoolin01]

(I don't have any experience with Blue Gold.)

I've been using 8-10% phosphoric acid with just a little (same as above 1 teaspoon per quart) liquid soap (Dawn) for a few years now. It works just as well, if not better than 50/50 water vinegar and smells much better. I cannot say for sure, but it also seems to be less corrosive to chrome.

Here's a link to a vendor I've used:
950 ml of 85% Food Grade Phosphoric Acid | eBay

Here is a calculator as you probably won't be using it all at once.
Dilution Calculator - Molarity, Percent - PhysiologyWeb

Should be interesting to see. 8% phosphoric is still 100x+ more acidic than 2.5% acetic acid.

Here's a chart that compares corrosion resistance of chrome to various chemicals. Both acetic acid and phosphoric appear better tolerated than some of the other mineral acids.

Based on this table, I'd be more concerned about the brass underneath. I still don't see the need for aggressive treatment of regulator parts with acid, either concentration or exposure duration. I usually use white vinegar at least 10x diluted and warm, and scale is typically quickly taken care of.

 

[cbrich]

Are you sure of this? I can't find this product or MSDS but the GMC Hydrosonic Solvent that they recommend for scuba is "mildly acidic" per the GMC site. 50% phosphoric acid is not mild by any stretch; pH <1.0 ! Maybe they mean total phosphate concentration in mildly acidic buffered composition, not phosphoric acid per se.

What pH is given (for either MSDS)?


ETA: looking at little at the two MSDS, I don't think you can believe the GMC, just too much conflicting/improbable data, though it does look like the data for concentrated phosphoric acid. At any rate, I wouldn't start at 50% or anywhere near it if you're brewing your own from H3PO4.

I don't understand how you can't find the MSDS of the GMC Ultrasonic Cleaner, or it's called GSMot Hydrosonic Solvent. It only takes me a few minutes to find it. Here is the link to the MSDS.

http://global-mfg.com/files/MSDS/SDS GSMoT Hydrosonic Solvent 43101 version 2.pdf

Also from the MSDS, the pH <2.5. How is it conflicting/improbable data? if you google the CAS# for the Phosphoric Acid, you will find the pH <0.5 for 85% Phosphoric Acid. Phosphoric Acid is a weak acid, its not a strong acid like Sulfuric acid, or Nitric Acid. 50% Citric acid only has a pH of 2.2. A company will not ship false MSDS sheets, or the feds will come a knocking.

I have used the GMC Ultrasonic Solution straight from the 1 gallon container, when I was servicing for a LDS. This is the chemical the big name brand regulator manufacturers recommend. GMC say NO dilution or mixing required.

I have not been able to confirm the exact concentration of phosphoric acid in LFW or Tumble Juice, but I've heard that it it "can" be diluted as much as 8:1 If you know a retired chemist who could titrate a sample, that would be very handy.

I thin my solution down to 8.5%

An earlier post piqued my curiosity regarding a stronger solution, so just today I have 4 pieces of chrome plated brass I cut off of an old regulator yoke soaking in the following:
5% vinegar
2.5% vinegar (the infamous 50/50 most DIYers use)
85% phosphoric acid
8.5% (by weight) phosphoric acid

I'll give it a couple of weeks to work on the chrome and report back with the results.

Couv

I don't have chrome plated brass laying around. I have placed a John Deere D brass carburetor in the GMC Ultra Sonic Solution, and it cleaned up really good, see pic. The "dirty" carburetor was placed in a steam washer, to remove all of the 80 year oil off of it because the other carburetor cause the GMC Ultrasonic Solution to become black. The clean one was placed right in the ultrasonic with GMC Ultrasonic solution; dirt, grease, and all for 60 mins. The solution turned black, and had a 3/4" thick layer of sludge at the bottom, no picture because this was performed a few years back.

 

[cbrich]

I usually use white vinegar at least 10x diluted and warm, and scale is typically quickly taken care of.

I wish, I could say the same. I used 5% Acetic Acid (white vinegar) on a B2, and it did NOT remove the corrosion, just made it soft, after 30 minutes in the ultrasonic bath. 25% citric acid removed it all together in about 10 minutes.