Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[runsongas]

You are either conveniently or out of ignorance omitting that after AFF you still need to get your A, B, C, and D licenses. Nobody I know would even remotely assume that an AFF graduate is a ready for the world. Blue Skies.

it is the closest equivalent analogy if we are talking about the fact open water scuba is no longer turning out independent divers that are capable of diving without a divemaster. i am aware the USPA A license is considered the first level at which you are no longer required to jump with a professional watching over you.

uspa a license runs roughly around 2000 to 2500 usd with skydive hollister. the aff program is advertised to try and get more people to at least attempt something more than the one off tandem jumps. in many respects, it is equivalent to modern ow viewed both in cost and time commitment.

how many dive certs do you think there would be per year if ow was 4 weeks long, 25 dives, and cost 2000 usd? 20% of the current level? 10%?

 

[MichaelMc]

What are you guys actually using a metric for the success of dive instruction? If modern instruction is so bad as people say wouldn’t the accident rate spike? Did it?

An incomplete answer could be:
* The old ways did not yield as many satisfied divers as they could have, and local diving no longer has a monopoly on equipment sales to support them. So yielding divers that have more fun in the water may help retention and pursuit of further training.
* We have more divers now, so less invasive dive techniques, off the bottom, help preserve the ocean ecosystem and dive environment, and others enjoyment.

 

[StefinSB]

it is the closest equivalent analogy if we are talking about the fact open water scuba is no longer turning out independent divers that are capable of diving without a divemaster. i am aware the USPA A license is considered the first level at which you are no longer required to jump with a professional watching over you.

uspa a license runs roughly around 2000 to 2500 usd with skydive hollister. the aff program is advertised to try and get more people to at least attempt something more than the one off tandem jumps. in many respects, it is equivalent to modern ow viewed both in cost and time commitment.

how many dive certs do you think there would be per year if ow was 4 weeks long, 25 dives, and cost 2000 usd? 20% of the current level? 10%?

AFF is not new. I started jumpin over 20 years ago in CA and every dropzone in the Bay Area did AFF (Hollister, Marina, Byron).

Where did I say that OW should last 4 weeks?

 

[runsongas]

it would have to be 4 weeks to get 25 dives in. class dives during the week would not work for most.

 

[MichaelMc]

Who is saying producing good in all aspects OW divers needs 25 dives? Skydives are much shorter than scuba dives, so their training progression may not transfer. Plus pool time, not open water time, is likely more conducive to learning basic skills.

 

[KevinNM]

"Keep cutting training time and instructor qualifications"--like it's happening all the time, right? Can you name an agency that has cut training time or instructor qualifications in the last couple of decades? The agency that you imply has done that has not dropped any requirements in that time and has added a bunch.

My experience with long distance airline flights has largely destroyed my confidence in the magic of ‘the market’. You’d be crammed in like rush hour in a nyc subway if the FAA wasn’t there to stop them with their evacuation standards.

 

[Bob DBF]

It reminds me of the time a friend of mine told me he taught his dog to talk. I went over to the dog and tried to talk to him, but all I got was an occasional "woof." I went to the friend and said, "I thought you said you taught your dog to talk? He can't say a word!" My friend got quite huffy and said, "I told you I taught him to talk, and I did. I didn't

Well the agency had not changed its standards, the instructor ckecked off all the requirements, and the card was issued. Who are we to argue with the result.

What are you guys actually using a metric for the success of dive instruction? If modern instruction is so bad as people say wouldn’t the accident rate spike? Did it?

Aside from the increased information about diving physology and procedures, and the evolution of dive equipment, add the change to a large amount of recreational diving being done in clear water with dive professionals. Another issue is the fact that no accurate data is kept by the diving industry or government to give a definitive answer.

Yes diving is safer than when I started, but the model went from Mike Nelson/Jacque Costeau to a Disneyland ride. Not to say which is better, but there is a difference between being a cowboy and dressing like a cowboy.


Bob

 

[StefinSB]

Well the agency had not changed its standards, the instructor ckecked off all the requirements, and the card was issued. Who are we to argue with the result.



Aside from the increased information about diving physology and procedures, and the evolution of dive equipment, add the change to a large amount of recreational diving being done in clear water with dive professionals. Another issue is the fact that no accurate data is kept by the diving industry or government to give a definitive answer.

Yes diving is safer than when I started, but the model went from Mike Nelson/Jacque Costeau to a Disneyland ride. Not to say which is better, but there is a difference between being a cowboy and dressing like a cowboy.


Bob

I totally understand what you are saying. However, if the end result is happy and healthy “divers” than what is wrong with that approach? I am shaking my head too in disbelief at the amount of GoPro toting millennial that e.g. go for a Discover Scuba when I am at our place in the Phillipines and I hate this crap. But then, if they all exit the water healthy and happy and no corals or sea life got hurt who are we to judge?

 

[Brandon]

What are you guys actually using a metric for the success of dive instruction?

Instruction has been effective if the student can plan and safely execute a dive in similar conditions to those in which they were trained, independently of a dive professional.

It reminds me of the time a friend of mine told me he taught his dog to talk. I went over to the dog and tried to talk to him, but all I got was an occasional "woof." I went to the friend and said, "I thought you said you taught your dog to talk? He can't say a word!" My friend got quite huffy and said, "I told you I taught him to talk, and I did. I didn't say he learned it!"

I love this.

I totally understand what you are saying. However, if the end result is happy and healthy “divers” than what is wrong with that approach? I am shaking my head too in disbelief at the amount of GoPro toting millennial that e.g. go for a Discover Scuba when I am at our place in the Phillipines and I hate this crap. But then, if they all exit the water healthy and happy and no corals or sea life got hurt who are we to judge?

We may also be at a place in diving where instruction is no longer the desired product, and people would rather have a hosted experience eg: Discover Scuba, Tandem Skydiving, Intro Heli/Plane Flights, etc.

 

[MichaelMc]

I totally understand what you are saying. However, if the end result is happy and healthy “divers” than what is wrong with that approach? I am shaking my head too in disbelief at the amount of GoPro toting millennial that e.g. go for a Discover Scuba when I am at our place in the Phillipines and I hate this crap. But then, if they all exit the water healthy and happy and no corals or sea life got hurt who are we to judge?

If the only time to dive is Saturday and Sunday, does instructors letting their groups knock out the vis for 20 minutes count against this approach?

Scaring off sea life would be hard to quantify as a measure of impact, but knocking out vis is much easier.