single or doubles BPW?

[KevinNM]

If it’s AJ does that help?

 

[KevinNM]

You can and it might not even be for diving reasons. You can turn up and do all the skills looking like the instructor. But if you act in a certain way you will fail. I think the question they ask if "would I want someone like this diving as part of my team". So if you went in mouthing off about their configuration, or if you argued with their ideas you would easily fail. Also try and light up a cig in front of an instructor. I'm not sure where they stand on e-cigs so you might get away with that one .

OK, you can also fail if you are an unsafe diver. My understanding is that you have to repeatedly demonstrate this and refuse corrections. Or do something so spectacularly unsafe the instructor won’t be in the water with you. I have no idea what that would be, but fools are ingenious...

 

[KentB]

That involves him buying a single tank wing. And an STA. And then as soon as he has passed (if he does I don't know him) then paying for more training. To then go back for an upgrade. Sounds like hassle to me.

Alternatively, he could dive in the configuration he wants. At best pass (very nice) or realistically worst case scenario is a provisional. Which means he has 6 months to pass. Using all the skills he has learnt, saving money, and diving in the configuration he wants.

Everyone is different. But if my plan was to dive in a twinset and people were telling me to do my training in a single tank, which was going to cost me more I'd think they had lost their minds.

In the real world passing fundamentals means next to nothing unless you want to do T/C1. It's about learning stuff. If you want a relatively obscure card then it might be easier to do get in a single tank config but it's not going to help him get to where he wants with his diving.

that was basically my original question that no one focused on and were more concerned with " how to pass this course" which i know regret even mentioning as the answers have gone all over the map.
I dont care about failing to be honest although Ive never failed anything in my life I don't know how I would take it but the "card" means less than f**k all to me Im more interested in becoming a better diver not the easiest way to pass this particular course.

 

[KentB]

i

I meant to add: I used a Dive Rite Rec EXP wing. It is 45# of lift. It works great with double 120s, which are 7.25" diameter. I think it might be a bit too narrow to give full lift if it were to be used with 8" diameter tanks (e.g. HP130s). Also, I definitely would not want a wing with any LESS lift when using steel 120s. And, though they market is as also being good for use with a single tank, I would definitely NOT use it for single tank diving, either. It's too wide and too much lift (i.e. too much empty wing flopping around).

I later bought a Dive Rite Classic XT wing, which is 60# of lift. I use that now when I'm carrying deco cylinders.

Final thought: Be aware that there is more to a wing than just its lift. I have now owned wings from Dive Rite, HOG, Deep Sea Supply, OMS, Halcyon, and Oxycheq. What I have found is that the shape of the wing determines where it gives its lift. This has a direct effect on your trim. With my setup, both my Dive Rite wings allow me to get flat in the water with just my SS BP and (depending on how cold it is) a soft V-weight. So did the OMS wing. With the Oxycheq and Halcyon wings, the only way I could get flat in the water and stay there (and keep my fins still at the same time) was if I were to put a tail weight on. Otherwise, with those wings, I was constantly fighting to keep from tipping head down. If I positioned myself to be slightly head up, then the Halcyon and Oxy were fine. I could stay slightly head up and still. But, as soon as I would go truly horizontal, with either of those wings, I would start to tip forward.

I attribute all that to the difference in the shape of the wings and where it positions the actual air inside when you are in different positions. If you look at, for example, the Halcyon (Explorer 55 is what I had), it's wider at the bottom. Thus, it seems that when you get totally flat, more of the air in the wing will move to the wider part - i.e. towards your butt. That's because when you are flat, the wide part of the wing means it will float up higher from the back. In contrast, both my Dive Rite wings are pretty much cylindrical down the sides. They stay roughly the same diameter from top to bottom. So, they keep the air more evenly distributed between your head and feet when you get flat.

I now only use my 2 DR wings for diving doubles and with those, I can get a little head up and stay that way (while keeping my fins still) and I can get flat and stay that way. All without needing a tail weight, which I really didn't want.

Final final thought: Double steels may be more head heavy than the single tank rigs you've been diving. To avoid needing a tail weight, no matter which wing you get, you MIGHT end up wanting fins that are more negatively buoyant than whatever you are using now. If you get some doubles and start tipping forward, more negative fins is at least something to consider. When I dive dry, I'm always also in doubles and I use the Hollis F1 fins because they are among the most negative fins that I know of. Fortunately, they also work EXTREMELY well for technical kicks. ScubaPro Jet fins are also reputed to be very negative in their buoyancy, but I have never tried (or weighed) any. My XL sized F1 fins are 2.0# negative in fresh water.

Just some additional info to keep in mind when shopping for a wing...

have turtle fins which from what i understand are quite negative in the big picture...... much more negative that the fins I first started on

 

[KevinNM]

that was basically my original question that no one focused on and were more concerned with " how to pass this course" which i know regret even mentioning as the answers have gone all over the map.
I dont care about failing to be honest although Ive never failed anything in my life I don't know how I would take it but the "card" means less than f**k all to me Im more interested in becoming a better diver not the easiest way to pass this particular course.

I didn’t take it for the card either. But unless you are already highly skilled (as in able to reliably perform all the skills in the standards with the accuracy required) the course will be hard. I’ve seen 4 classes and it kicks your butt. I did it once in doubles and a dry suit after getting a rec pass and practicing for months and EVERYONE in the class, which included a guy with full cave from another agency, got a provisional. We didn’t just not get tech passes, we didn’t even get rec passes. Each of us had 2-3 things that we just couldn’t reliably do, exactly what varied by student, but we all had major issues. Doing it with the full tech gear setup is really hard, and hence incredibly frustrating.

 

[jeffmg]

“my dilema is Im still learning to dive and wondering if I should get more experience under my belt before I jump to doubles?”


Sounds like a lot of these responses are from people that were in your shoes and through their personal experience are saying that you should wait until after your fundamentals course to jump to doubles

If you do decide to get some doubles, I’ve used a 40 Lb wing for all of my doubles diving from my tech upgrade in a pair of aluminum 80s to cave 1 in hp130s and tech 1 in 12ls, get yourself a donut style and a stainless backplate

Northeast cold water drysuit diving, my absolute favorite tanks are Lp85s, but I use a pair of aluminum 80s at the moment with a v-weight that are perfectly adequate, cheap, and will split nicely into some stages or deco bottles when I acquire some lp85s again

Whatever you decide just do it, and care about getting that card, if you have the card it means you’re probably in the top 10% of skill level of divers in the world, everything gets better after fundies, dives are more fun, your photos get better, you’re so much more in control of your environment when those skills are mastered

 

[Colliam7]

my dilema is Im still learning to dive and wondering if I should get more experience under my belt before I jump to doubles? Since Doubles will be in my future hopefully sooner than later why prolong a single tank?

A reasonable question - stay with singles while developing as a diver or go to doubles since that is your intended future. And, there isn't one and only one right answer. My personal recommendation would be to stay with a single cylinder, as you work to nail down your buoyancy, your trim, your propulsion techniques, your fundamental underwater skills (air sharing, bag deployment, etc.). Going to doubles is not terribly difficult but the overall weight, and trim characteristics, of back-mounted large steel cylinders simply adds a dimension of work that may slow your progress in developing your basics. Having said that I moved to double 120s early on (~dive 100) and did all of my tech training (where I really learned about buoyancy and trim and propulsion, etc.). And, I survived (and thrived). Had I to do it again, I think I would spend more time on the basics / fundamentals in a single cylinder configuration.

any advice on BPW? I dive dry and will have steel tank(s) im thinking a SS backplate. Id guess Id need about 40lbs lift? any brands to recommend or stay away from? Almost everyone around here that Ive got close enough to see dives Halcyon stuff.............

I agree with a steel backplate, given that you are diving dry. There are many good brands - plates and wings - out there. The only gear I might stay away from are some of the products that are available only online, and manufactured in Central and Eastern Europe. And, I would stay away not because they are necessarily of inferior quality but simply because in the uncommon event of having an issue, it may be more difficult to resolve with a distant manufacturer. I bought a Zeagle single cylinder wing ~4 years ago, that had to be replaced within a couple of months of purchase, after which the bladder in the replacement wing had to be replaced within 6 months. I was able, albeit with some minor difficulty, to finally get to the point of having a functional wing, but it required quite a bit of communication with the local shop, and with Huish. Had I need to have that communication via email with an Eastern European manufacturer, the outcome might have been more challenging. This is not a statement about the quality of Zeagle, by the way, just an example of a situation where having readily accessible local / easily accessible resources was helpful. Buy equipment where you have readily accessible, support. Several users have mentioned DSS for example. GREAT support, even where there may not be a local shop that carries their gear.

For me, a backplate is a backplate - I am of average size, and don't need a particularly long (or short) plate. I have several OMS plates, some Dive Rite plates, even a 'homemade' plate, and they all work just fine. Wings do tend to have a little more diversity. I have a number of Halcyon wings (as one user said, a bit expensive, but very durable), some Dive Rite wings, Apeks wings (probably my least favorite, simply because their casings are so stiff), Oxycheq, Zeagle, etc. And, I have subtle personal preferences, but all brands are functional, provide acceptable quality, and I would be hard pressed to say one is 'better' than another. Wing size is probably more important. With my drysuit and a set of double 120s, I find a 50 lb wing provides plenty of lift. I might be able to get away with an even smaller wing.

 

[_Ralph]

that was basically my original question that no one focused on and were more concerned with " how to pass this course" which i know regret even mentioning as the answers have gone all over the map.
I dont care about failing to be honest although Ive never failed anything in my life I don't know how I would take it but the "card" means less than f**k all to me Im more interested in becoming a better diver not the easiest way to pass this particular course.

Which is why I said to go in a singles configuration.

In my 'local' area (I'm only there for a few months at a time), people always seem to talk themselves out of a fundies course. Even after I offer them the gear, and offer them to pay the instructors fee if they feel they didn't learn a single thing.

Typical excuses are: "It's tech diving", "I can't use that (those skills) in Side Mount", "I can't do the course in Side Mount", "Its too expensive", etc ... even after stating I have the gear available to use, and would pay for the course if they didn't learn anything.

I'll extend that offer to you. I can send you a singles configuration (and canister light if needed) for you to use (and get used to). You can take the course. If you didn't learn anything from those few days, I'll pay the instructors fee.

Let me know, I'm in your neck of the woods tomorrow and can bring you the gear.

_R

 

[jeffmg]

I'll extend that offer to you. I can send you a singles configuration (and canister light if needed) for you to use (and get used to). You can take the course. If you didn't learn anything from those few days, I'll pay the instructors fee.

Let me know, I'm in your neck of the woods tomorrow and can bring you the gear.

_R

Wow

 

[KentB]

as an update-
Ive signed up for fundies in Nov it will be taught in Vancouver by Liz Tribe and Guy Shockey
Ive opted for the singles setup and picked up a halcyon eclipse wing with SS backplate and STA
I figure Ill always have a use for a single tank setup and next year ill grab a doubles setup.
Ive picked up a couple 117s as well they trim out much better than the 120 did, so I sold that tank.

I have been practicing alot of what i learned in the fundamentals workshop and my trim is quite good ive been told my bouyancy is OK when I have a wall or ground for reference, hanging out mid water with no reference I def need some work on.

my back kick and helicopter kick are coming along but need a bit of work i tend to hold my breathe when i do both so I go up a couple of feet.
now thats its hot out and AC season has gone insane Ive been getting out less than Id like but still managed 40 ish dives in 2018 so far but hopefully in another month or so ill be able to get a good bunch of dives in before it gets cold and heating season goes crazy. im hoping I can get another 30-40 before fundies and go from there!