ko tao woman hit by boat propeller

[Ian Yarwood]

This section is about incident/accident analysis. I suggest that we stick to the incident.

Coming up with a 5 year old advertisement picture as a means to make other readers form a negative opinion about a dive shop borders on slander and is inappropriate in this section. The usage of the terms divemaster and instructor shows that the writer did not have knowledge of the terminology of the diveworld. Changing news articles afterwards would be the same as witnesses changing their stories, in a subjective way after gaining knowledge.

As for the circumstances, divers who are interested in taking the divemaster course, have to make fundives until they reach 40 logged dives. None of them will be actively assisting during a course. The initial reports about divemaster trainees was probably due to a lack of knowledge, just as this was illustrated by the use of the words divemaster and instructor.
The OP mentions the use of a flag. Nobody uses a dive flag in/on the water, just a SMB when surfacing. Flags are used on the boats. If a SMB was meant, don't use the word flag. Incorrect use of terminology leads to confusion.

The unfortunate lady was killed by a boat propellor. I've been on lots of smaller boats which are used to get from the beach to the diveboats, which are out on the 2nd reef. Everytime there was 1 person sitting on the bow, checking for bubbles in the water. If any bubbles were present, the captain was signaled so he could slow down and check which way was the safest to avoid divers. Not a single word in the articles about this.

Yes, divers can get separated in a class. One student dives in a wrong direction, while the others keep going. It's a situation that requires an instructor to get his group back together. And this time, while he was attending such a diver, the other two students ascended, one of them ending up in a boat propeller. It's an accident. Not homicide. Can the instructor be blamed for this? Yes, he should have used another approach, e.g. use his divemaster. His negligence was so severe, that his license was revoked.

What else is there to learn from this accident?
Keep your class together, having a divemaster to assist is better.
If you're taking a boat over a divesite, have a lookout on the bow.

And that's it. Lawsuits, blame games and slander are not for this section.

P.S. please learn the difference between their and there. Thier is not even an English word.

Dear Miyaru

Thank you for your comments which were informative and educational for me as a non-diver.

Your post did contain some errors and at least one erroneous assumption that I should bring to your attention.

1. The advertisement, although created 5 years ago, remains on the dive shop’s Facebook page to this day. It is therefore a current advertisement.

2. The post contains an assumption as to why the advertisement was reproduced.

3. In fact, one of the reasons for reproducing the advertisement is that Koh Tao can be a dangerous place for new divers. If one looks at the articles referred to one will notice comments about boat drivers being reckless. Plus the death of Shelly Bot (snorkeller). Leg of Alice Davies almost severed. Plus death of Hanspeter Suter (possible boat accident) & disappearance of Valentina Novozhenova.

4. Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word. Both are forms of defamation. Defamation laws vary from one country to the next but I believe that in Western jurisdictions my comments were not defamatory but fair comment.

5. I do not know what the acronym SMB means. I am a lawyer not a diver.

6. There is a limited amount I know of the Pura Vida boat that struck Silje Mathisen. I continue to gather information.

7. There were 5 people on the dive. 2 first time divers. 2 people with about 20 dives and Ricky Collins.

8. In my opinion it is appropriate to correct an article if incorrect terms were used. A correction will reduce confusion for people who come across the article in the future.

Thanks again for your comments Miyaru. I assure you that I make my comments in good faith.

 

[boulderjohn]

7. There were 5 people on the dive. 2 first time divers. 2 people with about 20 dives and Ricky Collins.

In that case, there was no violation in the total numbers of people. The instructor is required to stay next to the Discover Scuba students.

 

[Ian Yarwood]

He was a PADI MSDT

Hi Miyaru

For the benefit of ignorant non-divers could you state what an MSDT is please? I do draft articles for the general public (not just divers) so it is helpful if I can inform them properly.

Can you also state the basis of your knowledge that Ricky Collins was a PADI MSDT please?

Thanks.

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi Miyaru

For the benefit of ignorant non-divers could you state what an MSDT is please? I do draft articles for the general public (not just divers) so it is helpful if I can inform them properly.

Can you also state the basis of your knowledge that Ricky Collins was a PADI MSDT please?

Thanks.

I can answer half of your question. MSDT means Master Scuba Diver Trainer. It is a certification level a step higher than the basic instructor level, which is OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor). The only meaningful difference is that a MSDT can teach specialty courses in addition to the standard courses. For most PADI instructors, that is as far up the chain they go. Higher certifications allow the instructor to train other instructors to varying degrees.

 

[Ian Yarwood]

I do have some general questions for all the experienced divers out there. I shall start with questions about suction and the Bernoulli effect.

1. Does PADI teach divers to move to the side to get out of the way of an approaching boat?

2. Does PADI point out to divers that they can get sucked into a propeller?

3. Does PADI teach divers about the Bernoulli effect?

These concepts are covered in the Samui Times article that I posted a link for.

 

[kaerius]

no the girls were not certified divers. they had just read the padi book and were out on thier first dive. that means they were very vulnerable. and not certified. i dont know what else i can say. u put two girls in harms way . boat traffic. no one to look after them? and u are saying its just unfortunate. not good enuf. im sorry. i will wait for the court handing out sentence this month in Thailand.

If that's the case, they wouldn't be with just a divemaster, they would be with an instructor. Your version of events make no sense.

 

[kaerius]

good post. im no expert. but shouldn't a diver who is on thier FIRST dive underwater be watched like a hawk. relentlessly? unfortunately Thailand does not let out alot of info (hurts tourism). but apparently thier were some experienced divers on this dive. and i will assume two newbies. the girls...........ricky promised the father of one of the girls (who was on the island) that he would watch them. but the info i have is that ricky had a hangover and was not around. all i can say is that in a dangerous spot (boats overhead) with two new girls under the shallow water. ricky should have been right in front of them at all times.

Padi MSDT here: Ricky should've been in touching range of both girls at all times, more likely between or above them than in front of them. The only exception to that rule is if he's got another instructor with him doing the above.

It's also not entirely clear if this is the first DSD dive, which has to be in a pool, or in open water in pool like conditions(good visibility, no current, mild waves), which can be done in a sheltered cove or the like, or if it was the second DSD dive(but first in open water), after doing the initial DSD dive in the pool. Condition requirements wary, so does maximum student counts, not to mention maximum depth(the first dive has a maximum depth of 6 meters, the followup has a maximum of 12 meters, and doesn't have to have pool like conditions).

I've done more DSDs than anything else in my instructor career, and I'd be really leery about taking DSDs to a high traffic area, or taking more than 2 with me alone, with a second instructor groups of 6 is doable for first dive, but no more than 4 on the second(2 per instructor), you really want a third instructor to take groups to the PADI limits.

 

[Cowfish Aesthetic]

I am a lawyer not a diver.

As a lawyer, are you, your firm, or anyone you have a relationship with involved in this case at all?

 

[Miyaru]

1. The advertisement, although created 5 years ago, remains on the dive shop’s Facebook page to this day. It is therefore a current advertisement.

I don't see it on their FB page. So probably a 5 year old photo on the timeline.

3. In fact, one of the reasons for reproducing the advertisement is that Koh Tao can be a dangerous place for new divers. If one looks at the articles referred to one will notice comments about boat drivers being reckless. Plus the death of Shelly Bot (snorkeller). Leg of Alice Davies almost severed. Plus death of Hanspeter Suter (possible boat accident) & disappearance of Valentina Novozhenova.

I spent 7 years there. Over 1.5 million dives are conducted around Koh Tao per year. Without issues. Of course there is no news value in reporting about each of these dives, all the good experiences and the fun. That might still not make up for several unfortunate accidents, but in this case a local captain was inflicting the fatal injuries. Not the diveshop that the instructor was working for. But a captain working for another diveshop you mention in 6. I can already tell you that the manager from that diveshop did not tell the captain to run over surfacing divers (and that's common sense, one doesn't need to be a lawyer to come up with this).

4. Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word. Both are forms of defamation. Defamation laws vary from one country to the next but I believe that in Western jurisdictions my comments were not defamatory but fair comment.

My apologies for not being native English. Fortunately the message is still clear. Since I'm not a lawyer but a participant on a forum about scuba diving, I care less about jurisdictions than reading between your lines. See point 1. C'est le ton qui fait la musique (since you're not multilingual or bilingual but English-speaking: google it).

5. I do not know what the acronym SMB means. I am a lawyer not a diver.

Surface Marker Buoy

Can you also state the basis of your knowledge that Ricky Collins was a PADI MSDT please?

He is listed as such on the PADI Pro website. Which is accessible for PADI Pro's.

Ian, if you're gonna post anything else in this section, I advise you to thoroughly read the special rules for this forum section. Several posts are crossing the line (including this reply), but that's up to a moderator to decide.

 

[Ian Yarwood]

Padi MSDT here: Ricky should've been in touching range of both girls at all times, more likely between or above them than in front of them. The only exception to that rule is if he's got another instructor with him doing the above.

It's also not entirely clear if this is the first DSD dive, which has to be in a pool, or in open water in pool like conditions(good visibility, no current, mild waves), which can be done in a sheltered cove or the like, or if it was the second DSD dive(but first in open water), after doing the initial DSD dive in the pool. Condition requirements wary, so does maximum student counts, not to mention maximum depth(the first dive has a maximum depth of 6 meters, the followup has a maximum of 12 meters, and doesn't have to have pool like conditions).

I've done more DSDs than anything else in my instructor career, and I'd be really leery about taking DSDs to a high traffic area, or taking more than 2 with me alone, with a second instructor groups of 6 is doable for first dive, but no more than 4 on the second(2 per instructor), you really want a third instructor to take groups to the PADI limits.

Hi Kaerius

I have just been in touch with Tore Simensen to get clarification on whether his daughter, Sigrid Simensen and Silje had a pool dive previously.

He does not believe they did. He met them on Koh Tao the day before the dive and went with them on the same boat to the dive site. He went on a different dive though.

He says he will get confirmation from Sigrid tomorrow. I shall report back here when I get confirmation.

I know all three paid for their dives together so Tore should have known whether the girls had a pool dive.