What are your thought on releasing accident information?

[PfcAJ]

Thinking back over cave diving fatalities; I have long held that we learn very little that we did not already know when we look at individual cases.

Fatalities I can think of involved:

Lack of training for the dive--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not using a continuous guideline to the surface--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not using proper gas management procedures--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Not breathing excessively high PO2 gas at depth--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Failure to analyze gas for O2 and CO before we dive it--we already knew this was adding to the risk
Not diving when physically unfit--we already knew this was adding to the risk.
Pushing personal limits way beyond experience--we already knew this was adding to the risk

When these fatalities are analyzed we learn nothing new. We do confirm the need to abide by these rules/guidelines, but we really learn nothing new.

Can anyone tell me of any fatalities that occurred due to something other than the above "rules" being broken?

I cannot think of one fatality where there was a sudden and striking realization of a new cause of a cave diving fatality.

The two guys at Eagles Nest. None of the “rules” were broken.

Mark Fyvie’s dive.

The one at ginnie where two folks decided to scooter to mainland and ??? happened and one of them drowned.

Still not really sure what happened to the two guys at Orange Grove. They were apparently beyond their training but that alone doesn’t make you drown.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Mark Fyvie’s Dive was planned by him and another guy who I will not name here. The plan was flawed. I thought everyone knew that the thing filled with water while laying there waiting for Mark to return. Each time the opv burped water came in. The opv burped a lot since the O2 was left on and the solenoid kept firing. The loop was completely flooded.

The two that scootered to Ginnie, another bad plan. Scootering through a restriction? Planning a dive that far back on 95’s. Tsk Tsk. Bad plans.

Eagles Nest, way too far, way too fast. I firmly believe they were in fact diving WAY beyond their experience.

Diving beyond your training alone does not make you die. Being unable to handle unexpected failures and being unable to even anticipate those failures kills you if you don’t luck into the right decisions.

 

[iain/hsm]

The make and model of the rebreather is about all you need to know to make an informed choice.
The basic outline of the dive depth location temperature conditions and duration is all that's needed.
The height weight and age of the diver fills in all the missing blanks.

We dont need a conflict about it or a conference or for that matter a lawyer to cover truth.

 

[boulderjohn]

Eagles Nest, way too far, way too fast. I firmly believe they were in fact diving WAY beyond their experience.

That may be the real value of these reports and these discussions.

Two years ago I was part of a dive group that suffered a fatality. That death hit me hard. I have done nearly no cave diving since then. The diver who died was highly trained and highly experienced. He and another highly experienced diver did all the forward exploration for the team while others like me worked on projects that did not require that much skill and training.

The night before he died, I listened as he and his teammate planned their dive for the following morning. After his death, I thought back to that planning session, and as I recalled the details, I realized that as trained as he was, he was not really at the level he needed to be for that dive. His skill and training were far, far beyond mine, but he was doing a dive that was still beyond him.

I struggled to write an article that would generically talk about the need to be able to make an accurate assessment of your own training relative to an approaching dive. Those of you in the instructor to Instructor forum can go back two years and see where I solicited ideas for writing it. I tried and tried and tried to write it, but I eventually gave up.

Perhaps the value of reports on dives like that is that it reminds readers that no matter how skilled and experienced we are, there are dives that are beyond our training and ability, and we need to be honest in appraisal of our own skills and the dive we are planning to do.

 

[hroark2112]

Stories like that scare the crap out of me. I look at my abilities and training, I look at what I've seen others do, and I try to remember how little experience I have as compared to so many others. I look at the things I have yet to do, and I try to keep my goals realistic.

Releasing accident reports, unless they contain some kind of definitive proof regarding the accident, probably won't do much to help. Besides, with all the "experts" here on ScubaBoard and on FaceBook, why do I need more information? People here know it all anyway!!

 

[KevinNM]

Eagles Nest, way too far, way too fast. I firmly believe they were in fact diving WAY beyond their experience.

What level of experience did they have vs what you think was needed for that dive? What were they missing in terms of what they needed to safely do that sort of dive?

 

[lermontov]

That may be the real value of these reports and these discussions.

Two years ago I was part of a dive group that suffered a fatality. That death hit me hard. I have done nearly no cave diving since then. The diver who died was highly trained and highly experienced. He and another highly experienced diver did all the forward exploration for the team while others like me worked on projects that did not require that much skill and training.

The night before he died, I listened as he and his teammate planned their dive for the following morning. After his death, I thought back to that planning session, and as I recalled the details, I realized that as trained as he was, he was not really at the level he needed to be for that dive. His skill and training were far, far beyond mine, but he was doing a dive that was still beyond him.

I struggled to write an article that would generically talk about the need to be able to make an accurate assessment of your own training relative to an approaching dive. Those of you in the instructor to Instructor forum can go back two years and see where I solicited ideas for writing it. I tried and tried and tried to write it, but I eventually gave up.

Perhaps the value of reports on dives like that is that it reminds readers that no matter how skilled and experienced we are, there are dives that are beyond our training and ability, and we need to be honest in appraisal of our own skills and the dive we are planning to do.

well regardless of the details I always think to myself if an experienced diver can mess up then so can I, and in the case you outlined, when I read something like this i ask myself 'is there any part of me on this story' if I get to the point of thinking im better than that then Im vulnerable too.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

What level of experience did they have vs what you think was needed for that dive? What were they missing in terms of what they needed to safely do that sort of dive?

I cannot quantify it.

My knowledge of what happened is all based on what I read, not from any personal experience with those divers.

My thoughts are based only on an intuition, and I base this on having many years experience diving and cave diving.

When I look at the dive, the plan, the goals of that dive and the experience level of the divers the hairs on my neck stand up.

Opinions will vary and I cannot defend my intuition in any definitive way.

 

[TrimixToo]

I cannot quantify it.

My knowledge of what happened is all based on what I read, not from any personal experience with those divers.

My thoughts are based only on an intuition, and I base this on having many years experience diving and cave diving.

When I look at the dive, the plan, the goals of that dive and the experience level of the divers the hairs on my neck stand up.

Opinions will vary and I cannot defend my intuition in any definitive way.

People need to pay more attention to those hairs. In my view, if you have to ask yourself whether it's a good idea, you know the answer already.

 

[mdax]

I think most just have a morbid need to convince themselves that what occurred would never happen to them, a proactive vaccination against death.
It's a cultural norm, we ignore deaths march till the very end.

The eagles nest goofball took a damn child into the cave for starters, avoided training and of course his equally ignorant family is up in arms.
True stupidity runs strong in some families, there is definitely a genetic component to dumb.