Dangerous divers, redux

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Whoa there @Zef ...For one, I have advocated that if someone has no buddy, and has not dived in a while, then they should pay for a dive guide, not expect instruction and nanny-assistance from others who have paid for dive and have other concerns....

There is nothing that indicates the diver in question was "looking for instruction" or "nanny-assistance from others". In the perfect dive op that exists on the planet you live on only those with buddies and fresh experience will be taken out for dives. Unfortunately on planet earth that is far from reality whether you like it or not.

One with experience and refined skills can just as easily be expected to pay for a private dive guide/DM to take them out so as to avoid the less experienced possibly negatively affecting them, just as much as one can expect the less experienced to pay for private service to not affect those with better skills. That is a sword that cuts both ways.

If you are upset that other divers negatively affected your night dive with your daughter then perhaps you should have looked into a private guide as well. Your experience does not give you any exclusive rights in an open and mixed group.

-Z
 
Well, snoweman:
Perspective is everything.

And, Marie13, you don't actually have enough perspective to know that you'd tear a strip off of a dm.
 
I dive frequently in Boynton Beach, FL. None of the operators put a DM in the water. I usually dive solo, but occasionally volunteer to take another diver or small group when they are clearly unfamiliar with the area, new to drift diving, or otherwise would seem to benefit from a little assistance to get off to a good start.

I dived with a young married couple visiting from DC, each had less than 20 dives, the husband a few more than his wife. On the first dive, the woman had a lot of problems. She started underweighted and could not descend, I got her some more weight from the boat. Soon after descending, she lost one of her weight pockets and started to cork. I grabbed her and her weight pocket. By this time, the current had dragged us very far off the reef and we had a relatively long swim back, doubt they would have found it. About half way through the dive, her tank came out of her BC and I replaced it. The man did OK on the dive but I don't think he had the extra bandwidth to have been able to effectively deal with all the problems that came up. The rest of the dive was uneventful but both used up their gas pretty quickly. I ascended, did the safety stop, and surfaced with them. I descended and finished my dive when the boat came to pick them up. We discussed the first dive and plans for the second dive during the surface interval.

The second dive was much better, no problems. They ascended on the flag by themselves. They thanked me for the help at the end of the trip and we went our separate ways. The next day, by chance, I ran into the couple underwater, diving from a different boat. They were with another couple, looked very comfortable, and the man was carrying the flag! They saw me, gave me an enthusiastic OK, and we went our separate ways again.

I've had many experiences similar to this one. Sometimes it's very gratifying to help new, inexperienced, or less skilled divers
 
The swimming activity of the arms is dangerous to anyone within arms reach and not knowing he is there. A person moving like that can rip a regulator out of another diver's mouth. It's bad enough with good divers bumping into one another, but it is my opinion that he would be more likely to kick off a mask with his sudden, jerky movements.

For the nuance, the BCD is one example. I don't know enough about that model/brand BCD, but I would be very nervous about releasing a CO2 cartridge into a BCD at depth. Lord help him if it got snagged and pulled while he was going through a swim through.

Releasing a CO2 cartridge deeper than 25 ft will have little affect. They also need a good pull to trigger, especially when rusty
 
Releasing a CO2 cartridge deeper than 25 ft will have little affect. They also need a good pull to trigger, especially when rusty
First dive of the season is tradionally a cluster f***. It’s hard to tell when a transient problem is a state of being or.... transient. Helping the new guy should always be option one.

If this was a dive clearly beyond his skill set, yeah, that is a different game. Advice politely offered is seldom rebuffed. Diving is a shared social activity. Even solo divers enjoy hanging out topside and shooting the breeze. Some of the places I go have lots of students rototilling the bottom. I either put up with their learning curve or go other places. Frequently it is other places.
 
If you are upset that other divers negatively affected your night dive with your daughter then perhaps you should have looked into a private guide as well. Your experience does not give you any exclusive rights in an open and mixed group.
-Z
If you read my post, Oh Postulating Poster, you would have seen that I DID hire a private Dive Guide, $60! Plus $$$ For Dive cost, $40 tip for a first dive to refresh with just the two of us. Then, Refreshed and ready to dive safely, we joined a tour with two guys that did NOT pay for a refresher, and were working out their kinks on a group dive.
So the question that @Snoweman has raised for us all;
What level of preparation is the MINIMUM before diving with other divers? Equipment, Refresher? Hygiene? Attitude?
 
If you read my post, Oh Postulating Poster, you would have seen that I DID hire a private Dive Guide, $60! Plus $$$ For Dive cost, $40 tip for a first dive to refresh with just the two of us. Then, Refreshed and ready to dive safely, we joined a tour with two guys that did NOT pay for a refresher, and were working out their kinks on a group dive.
So the question that @Snoweman has raised for us all;
What level of preparation is the MINIMUM before diving with other divers? Equipment, Refresher? Hygiene? Attitude?
Out of curiosity, what value does how much you spent, including the exact amount of the tip, bring to this discussion?
We all got it, you hired a pro on an earlier dive, and felt these guys needed one on this dive. You are intitled to an opinion.
Zef is also intitled to his, that if you don't want to be bothered by other divers, you can get your own pro again and go off by yourselves.
On a dive trip, I want to be blowing bubbles the morning after I arrive. Most of the places I go don't have shore diving, so that first boat dive I may be sorting out new kit or weighting issues (kinks). I'm not going to pay a pro because you think I should. I will however do my utmost to stay away from you while I dive.
 
As a rookie myself I am far from perfect. I strive to have good poise underwater and try to learn by emulating those divers I think are "good" divers. I'm still learning. Sure I see divers bump into others (or me), scull, bump the reef, burn through air quickly, or have poor "bicycling" trim. I just keep my distance and try to learn how not to do it. I would never consider offering unsolicited advice to anyone (even if I have 500 dives) and I'd be rather put off if I received unsolicited advice from a fellow paying passenger. I think a lot of inexperienced divers are nervous enough about not being "that guy" and causing an issue let alone having someone say something to you and ruin your day(s). If a DM was to make comments or suggestions I can accept that. And those comments should be done discreetly and not in front of all of the divers.
 
OP, the fact that you admit you were a danger to yourself translates that you were a danger to everyone around you in the water. That you do not realize this but are quick to and feel justified in criticizing another diver is more the real problem/danger.

OK. But, you never asked what the mistakes were. I will provide one of them. On my last dive trip, I asked for 16 lbs. The DM thought I only needed 14, but I used 16. If I was over-weighted, it only slightly. Since then, I have been working out. While I haven’t lost a ton of weight, I have lost inches around the waist. To me, that translated into more muscle mass and less fat (denser, less weight needed – thank you, Globo Gym!). I also thought I was renting steel 100’s. So, I went with 14 lbs this time. I didn’t check the tank. It was an aluminum 100. When I was descending, I thought I was a little light, but I didn’t go back up for more weight (which could have gone in my tank trim pocket. By the time I reached 700 PSI, I couldn’t maintain my safety stop, and was bobbing like a cork. So, really, there were about three mistakes in what I am counting as one mistake. But…, I don’t see how any part of this put anyone else at danger.

Moving your arms while diving may not be an example of good techinique but it is hardly unsafe....the ocean (lake, pond, etang, etc) is a big place with lots of space for quite a number of divers, If you can't space yourself safely from another diver who's techinique is a bit erratic then you should stop focusing on the erratic diver and focus more on your own positioning in the water. Also, if visibility is more than a few meters then there is little excuse for divers, especially with experience, to be bumping into each other and kicking each other...in a low vis environment or a night dive where it may be more imperative to stay shoulder to shoulder I can see this, but during a dive with 2-3 meters or more of visibility being arms length apart is close enough for communication and safety.

Except for the fact that this diver wouldn’t maintain distance. As much as you want it, I could not control him from trying to swim closer to us. I would have loved to stay eight to ten feet away, but that would have meant monitoring him for the entire dive, and not enjoying any part of the dive.

Also, you remarked that this diver in question would be a danger in a swim through....it sounds from everything you describe that there were other divers that lacked experience in general among the divers in your group...particularly the 13yo you reference....perhaps your excursion group should not have been anywhere near a swim through....and if the decision was beyond your control, you could have elected to pass through before the erratic diver or after them negating the so called safety issues you talk of.

The young lady has perfect buoyancy. She easily proved this by drifting along for a hundred feet or more with her legs crossed and holding her fins. Had her dad or I witnessed anything that would have been a red flag, then we would have stopped her. Her dad is a very safe diver and a very protective father.

A regulator being inadvertently pulled/knocked from someones mouth is not necessarily an emergency, it is something that is trained for during basic open water cert courses. In the scenario you describe the unlikely event would be the diver using their arms would snag a hose and yank the regulator out of someoneelse's mouth...this is unlikely to cause injury, the diver affected should have enough spatial awareness to keep clear of the guy, and if it was to unfold where the reg got yanked out it is as simple as grabbing the octo/safe second and plopping that in the mouth and then recover the primary second stage.

Granted, but is it something you want to happen? It may not be an emergency, but it can create one. Accidents happen, but seeing bad behavior that creates bad situations… well, I commend you for having more patience for it than me.

Having a mask knocked off, again is not an emergency, and is a skill specifically trained in every basic open water course. It could be problematic if the mask is lost, but again all that means is some discomfort and an aborted dive, rarely does it involve injury, and in the case where one is better off ascending the anchor or other line for safety, then the diver with the lost mask can be escorted back to the line by their buddy where they will then abort the dive...again no danger, just some discomfort...and great learning experience.

Agreed. And it’s probably a good reason to carry a second mask on every dive. I carry enough luggage, and don’t carry a spare mask. If someone doesn’t see it go off and it isn’t returned, then there goes the dive. This is not my main concern, but it would upset me to lose a dive because of someone’s unnecessary, erratic behavior.

Among your mistakes, was you interpreting the other divers experience based on the fact that they had well worn/vintage gear. People buy and sell old gear all the time, it means nothing with regard to experience. It could very well have been this guy's 1st post certification dive(s)...nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with rapid air consumption in this scenario, and nothing wrong with excessive arm movement and kicking either. It is not only not dangerous but to be expected of a beginner diver....All those things only get better with time/experience under the water.

To me, a CO2 cartridge as part of the BCD is dangerous gear. Do you stop to think why they discontinued the BCD and no one else picked up on the idea? I have no problem with old gear. My fins were bought on eBay. I would much rather see a diver with older, maintained gear, than new gear. All new gear suggests a brand new diver. But that’s just me being judgmental. And, this guy was not new. He had been to CZM diving ten years ago and his previous dive was a week before this one.

The story you posted seems to reflect more about you than the other diver.

Now this really cracks me up. You’re judging me for judging another diver’s skills and asking how to handle it. What does that say about you? I mean, other than not being able to recognize irony.

You think my asking for advice is a veiled attempt to just vent. Maybe. I hope not. I have had another situation in T&C with a diver that was acting in a similar manner. The difference was that he was not trying to be my shadow, or the shadow of anyone. I told the DM that he was dangerous on the way back to the hotel. I got the impression that the dive shops are more interested in keeping the TripAdvisor ratings than correcting bad behavior - especially when the advice is not solicited. I get the impression it is up to fellow divers to speak up. Hence, my request for advice.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom