Help with frog kick

[stepfen]

It seems that no matter what, I can't turn the fins outwards enough while my knees are bend like for example around 0:33 in the video above. Even on land without fins e.g siting on a chair I have difficulties turning my feet outwards like this unless I straighten my legs first or I spread my knees wide apart. Max I can get is 45 degrees or so. My legs seems to be too stiff to turn that much. Anything I can do???
During diving like this I can move forward a bit but it is slow and it doesn't feel efficient, nice or smooth at all. Unfortunately I don't have a video.
Keep in mind that I don't own any diving fins yet. I try on every dive (with rented open-heel ones - cressi frog or something) and yesterday I tried with my old snorkeling close-heel fins while swimming on the surface facing up as suggested by the @The Chairman and others in another post. On the surface things were even worst. I could cover less than 10metters/30feet in 1 minute or so.
According to @Macan in another post cheap fins shouldn't be a problem though.
Any suggestions welcome. Thanks

 

[Diver0001]

Take a look at this video. I'm the diver in front with the yellow fins. For the first 30 seconds or so you can see an easy going frog kick. Notice that I'm not turning my knees at all. The turn comes from the hip, not from the knees. You can try it right now. Extend your leg and then cause the foot to turn left and right by POINTING the knee.... not turning the knee... to the left and right. You will see that the rotation comes from the hip joint, not from the knee joint.

 

[The Chairman]

suggested by the @The Chairm

Another suggestion: post a video of your efforts. We can only guess from here.​

 

[stepfen]

Notice that I'm not turning my knees at all. The turn comes from the hip, not from the knees.

So you are saying that most power comes from the hips, not from the thighs?
Hmm interesting. I was trying to do it by turning the ankle and the foot (bottom part of the leg) - not the knee - and of course I need to turn the hips a bit accordingly. Anyway see for example at 0:06 to 0:07 in your video. The fins are horizontal with their bottom facing upwards and for a moment they are practically perpendicular to your body! I can't get them that "open". The best I can do is having them about halfway there (45 degrees or so) but even for that my legs need to be almost fully extended hence there is not power left for the stroke.

Another suggestion: post a video of your efforts. We can only guess from here.​

I wish I could but I don't know when I'll be diving again and if a camera will be available then. I'll definitely try to get that though.

 

[Macan]

@stepfen,

It's hard to imagine the problem you're describing, as the chairman said, try to capture it on video. You got some great inputs from @Diver0001. Let me add a few bits:

1. First off, you need to be in good horizontal trim. See video below. The key is at 0:55. Knees Up. Legs at 45* - 90*. For now, it’s ok even it your legs are at 30*. Fins Flat (not pointed to the surface). This is your starting position.


2. Loading Phase: Slowly point your fins out. This is an ankle movement. For now, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Any degree of pointing the fins out is fine. Your knees will naturally separate as you do this. This is normal.

3. Power Stroke Phase: Now, bring your ankles together, You’re aiming to bring the bottom of your feet together, think clapping the fins. What’s happening is you’re pushing water behind to propel you forward.

Take your time. Doesn't have to be perfect. It will all come together with more practice.

 

[Youngandfree]

If your hips and legs are tight, spend some time stretching them out daily.

 

[stepfen]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I tried again yesterday in the sea and it seems better now. Not perfect but I think I'm in the right direction.
It's summer here so I bring my kids almost everyday to the beach - too bad they need me next to them most of the time. Now that I know I can exercise on the surface without diving gear I will manage it sooner or later.
Thanks

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I tried again yesterday in the sea and it seems better now. Not perfect but I think I'm in the right direction.
It's summer here so I bring my kids almost everyday to the beach - too bad they need me next to them most of the time. Now that I know I can exercise on the surface without diving gear I will manage it sooner or later.
Thanks

Regarding getting the fin "perpendicular" during the power part of the stroke. First of all it's not an absolute requirement but it does help. I haven't really analyzed how I do that but from memory I don't pay any attention to that at all. Once the bottom of the fin catches the water and you start to close the legs then the dynamics of the water pushing on the fin just sort of automatically seem to force it into a perpendicular position.

Ergo, I would think the thing to do is "not worry about it". One thing that you might *not* be doing that you will clearly see if you look closely at those two clips is to widen your legs. The stroke is not backwards. The beginning of the stroke involves getting your legs wide enough apart that you can pull them back together again. In your mind think about mounting a horse on the first part of the stroke.

If/when you try that I'd like to hear back if that tip was helpful or not. I'm curious.

R..

 

[BabyDuck]

think about it as clapping the bottoms of your feet together.

 

[Lobzilla]

You can practice the frog kick to some extend on dry land but the inertia of the (heavy and rigid) fins and even more so the forces from the water help greatly to achieve both the flat push and the "clap" at the end of the power stroke.

At the end of the loading stroke (pulling the fins forward) we need to reverse foot and fin movement for the power stroke (pushing backwards). If we hesitate there for a fraction of a second and relax the lower leg and ankle muscles, the inertia will carry the fin tips further forward and outward until they look like a whale tail. This will be easier with fins that have some weight and are shorter and more rigid.

Then, still somewhat relaxed at the ankle try to push back and let the forces from the water turn your ankles/fins. Think about holding your hand out of the window of a driving car with the edge of your hand facing against the flow. That's how the fin should be oriented during the loading stroke to minimize drag. Now turn you hand just a little bit and notice how it snaps to the flat position causing maximum drag. The same will happen with your fins if you let them after initiating the rotation.

The frog kick is more about correct timing and subtle movements than about forcing and muscling the fins around. The big muscles in our thighs should do the work and all the smaller muscles in our lower legs just initiate changes in the fin orientation. When you get this right, you will feel it. It will be like a "walk in the park", a zen-like state of moving forward.