12 boys lost in flooded Thai cave

[Kingclone]

Here is a film about the 2 british cave divers that found the kids.

 

[rmssetc]

The people who know the most about cave rescues seem to be the most reluctant to speculate.

They might not be reluctant to speculate at all.

The people who know the most about cave rescues might just be busy.
In Thailand.
Underwater.
Trying to rescue kids....not posting on the internet for our education.

 

[boulderjohn]

Anyway, a belgian newspaper states that the boys are running out of oxygen and they are below 15%.

Two weeks ago I played golf at the Mt. Massive golf course in Leadville, Colorado. At 10,000 feet, the partial pressure of oxygen in the air is the equivalent of less than 15% at sea level. There is an entire city filled with people living there all year long.

 

[Brilig]

I have a question for the cave divers. When moving through a tight passage with significant current is the task easier when moving upstream or downstream? I would imagine that downstream movement with a significant current would be more difficult because the current would tend to want to wedge you in place. Do you need to turn and face the current? I understand the current is flowing in the direction of the exit for the boys. Could anyone with experience describe to us non cavers what this situation is like as I think this is one of the the key obstacles to the boys rescue. The tight passage with a current.

 

[xmass-Eve]

... and what do you think? Why haven’t any other newspapers supporting such news?

04/02/2007 - Clarification of OSHA's requirement for breathing air to have at least 19.5 percent oxygen content. | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

“...Concentrations of 12 to 16 percent oxygen cause tachypnea (increased breathing rates), tachycardia (accelerated heartbeat), and impaired attention, thinking, and coordination (e.g., Ex. 25-4), even in people who are resting.”

Does the kids in the YouTubes videos show such symptoms?

Why would the medical doctor on site who examined them, rate the kids medical situation as “green”, meaning they are in good healthy condition?

What sort of air analysis are done by the Belgian newspaper to support such claim?

That's why I said, Dan, lots of fake stories (or hard to believe stories) are coming out. They cited a belgium diver being around... but he is not cited in name. He said the people in charge would have thought there was enough air coming in through small cracks but apparently it isnt...

 

[xmass-Eve]

Two weeks ago I played golf at the Mt. Massive golf course in Leadville, Colorado. At 10,000 feet, the partial pressure of oxygen in the air is the equivalent of less than 15% at sea level. There is an entire city filled with people living there all year long.

People in the mountains live there indeed the whole year round. They are used to living in lesser O2 situations... Thank God, they can live there. I am planning to buy some land around the Breck or Leadville area

Anyway, I would like to see another source for the claim. Journalist are just trying to make themselves popular right now

 

[JohnnyC]

I have a question for the cave divers. When moving through a tight passage with significant current is the task easier when moving upstream or downstream? I would imagine that downstream movement with a significant current would be more difficult because the current would tend to want to wedge you in place. Do you need to turn and face the current? I understand the current is flowing in the direction of the exit for the boys. Could anyone with experience describe to us non cavers what this situation is like as I think this is one of the the key obstacles to the boys rescue. The tight passage with a current.

The answer is, it depends. It depends on cave topography, strength of flow, desired direction of travel, etc. It can make things easy, or it can make things tough. Outward flow can be very good for gas conservation on your exit, but it can also make navigation difficult. I can't recall all the details off the top of my head, but a guy got bent in Florida when he was blown out of the cave with a deco obligation.

Regarding the Thai kids situation, not being familiar with that cave or those restrictions, I wouldn't be comfortable giving an opinion on whether or not the flow would be beneficial, or a hindrance in this particular case. Considering how tight the cave is, I would hazard a guess that it would be better for the rescuers if there was little flow, if only to minimize the variables they will have to deal with on the way out.

 

[Dan]

Two weeks ago I played golf at the Mt. Massive golf course in Leadville, Colorado. At 10,000 feet, the partial pressure of oxygen in the air is the equivalent of less than 15% at sea level. There is an entire city filled with people living there all year long.

You are comparing apple with orange. The oxygen concentration at 10,000 feet would still be at 21%. However the air pressure is at 0.71 atmosphere. Therefore, the oxygen partial pressure is at 0.15 atmosphere. That doesn’t mean the oxygen concentration is 15%. As stated by OSHA link I posted above, anything below 19.5% oxygen concentration is not healthy for human to breathe.

We also don’t consider the harmful elevated CO2 level that would be in the air as we breathe out in confined space, like in an enclosed garage with a car engine on. The oxygen concentration may still be closed to 20-21%, but people died there due to breathing air with elevated CO2 coming out of the car exhaust.

I summitted Kilimanjaro at 20,000 feet. If the oxygen concentration would be 11.5%, according to your estimation, I won’t be here to post this message. It’s still 21%, but the air pressure is only at 0.55 atmosphere. We have to walk very slowly to balance the oxygen intake with the oxygen consumption to avoid altitude sickness. That’s all.

Altitude.org | Altitude air pressure calculator

 

[Lorenzoid]

They might not be reluctant to speculate at all.

The people who know the most about cave rescues might just be busy.
In Thailand.
Underwater.
Trying to rescue kids....not posting on the internet for our education.

As I mentioned in another post, I had in mind what I had heard in an interview with Anmar Mirza, the NSS Cave Rescue Commission National Coordinator, who clearly aimed to leave his own speculation out of it in favor of those who are on the scene. "In Thailand." "Underwater." I was really impressed how he related the facts and the options without injecting his own opinions, despite the interviewer trying to coax that out of him. Well done, I thought.

 

[Octopusprime]

WOW... So happy they found them. I know there is still a long road to getting them out, but Just the boys seeing people and getting food will give them hope. At least now the team will not take drastic measures.

There is occasionally a mention of pumping water out. I wish there was more information. There have to be some Massive pumps in the area from mining operations. The last report I saw said there were over 50 pumps running and they have drilled to get in a couple more pumps.