Blowing off Steam

[CathyE]

As did roughly 35 million other Canadians.

True, but unusual for me.
My husband usually makes me a pot of really good coffee every morning and puts it into a thermos. This morning I was pulling Grandma duty in Kingston.

 

[lowflyer]

I think you and I can agree that "fell in the surf and is getting battered by the waves" is probably an unsafe situation. The situation I'm talking about is the woman who is confidently and surefootedly walking out into the water and you come running up and lift her tanks for her because you are worried she might hurt herself.
"

I would never try to help that woman. I guess we are both talking about extreme examples.

 

[admikar]

If you change the way you talk and act around women than how you behave around only other men, you aren't showing more respect, you are disrespecting them because you are saying they are different and shouldn't be treated equally.

Or, if you treat them the same as men, you get to be a jerk. Read my post above for clarification.

 

[Colliam7]

Alright, gonna put the obligatory 'not most men' here but is anyone else really sick of being called a 'lady diver' instead of a diver? Or people assuming that you need help even when you've got about 200 more dives under your belt then the fella trying to help you/feel you up in your suit.

I will ask if someone needs help. I won't assume they do. I won't jump in and physically help without being asked, unless I believe the diver (male or female) is in serious trouble, and unable to help themselves.

I was shore diving and fell over because of a loose stone and a strong wave and a guy started going on about how I couldn't take the weight because of being a woman and I wanted to sock him. Not the greatest impulse, and most guys couldn't be more helpful or gender neutral, but I can't stand it. It made me so pissed off.

And, that is understandable. Men and women can get rolled by waves on shore entries and exits. I have helped, and I have been helped by, female divers on a few Bonaire shore entries, as an example, when they or I stepped on the wrong piece of slick coral, just as a roller came it.. Gender is irrelevant as to whether you can be knocked over. And, gender is irrelevant as to who can help who.

 

[Storker]

the fella trying to help you/feel you up in your suit.

I missed this part the first time I read the OP. My initial reaction was "WTF? What kind of pathetic loser is that?", but then I got thinking a little bit.

IME suiting up and kitting up in mixed company can easily be a mite uncomfortable for the more modest people. If I'm helping my buddy or mate to adjust their neck seal, sometimes the easiest way to do that is to stick my hands inside their suit through the open backzip. If the buddy/mate is a woman, I might get (for some people) uncomfortably close to her chest, particularly if she's on the larger side. Also, helping someone to get hold of their crotch strap - something I've asked for help with on several occasions - necessarily means that your hands will be close to their crotch area. Basically, it's difficult to be of assistance without intruding the other person's personal space. And some folks are quite relaxed about that, others aren't.

Sometimes such things are perfectly legitimate but can be misunderstood, othertimes they are used as an excuse for being a creep. I can find that a bit difficult to relate to, even if I'm deliberately trying not to be a creep.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I've generally been able to tell the difference

 

[EvaFin]

I missed this part the first time I read the OP. My initial reaction was "WTF? What kind of pathetic loser is that?", but then I got thinking a little bit.

IME suiting up and kitting up in mixed company can easily be a mite uncomfortable for the more modest people. If I'm helping my buddy or mate to adjust their neck seal, sometimes the easiest way to do that is to stick my hands inside their suit through the open backzip. If the buddy/mate is a woman, I might get (for some people) uncomfortably close to her chest, particularly if she's on the larger side. Also, helping someone to get hold of their crotch strap - something I've asked for help with on several occasions - necessarily means that your hands will be close to their crotch area. Basically, it's difficult to be of assistance without intruding the other person's personal space. And some folks are quite relaxed about that, others aren't.

Sometimes such things are perfectly legitimate but can be misunderstood, othertimes they are used as an excuse for being a creep. I can find that a bit difficult to relate to, even if I'm deliberately trying not to be a creep.

What is very different here is that they are your buddy. I expect that kind of contact, wetsuits are wetsuits, they're a tight fit and occasionally need a wriggle around and stretch. I assume you would zip someone up without an invitation right? These aren't invited touches - when someone's helping 'steady' me I don't need two hands on my waist for too much time or a hand lingering on my arse. I know sometimes innocent things can be misconstrued but also years of this treatment means most women do know the difference.

 

[EvaFin]

This is not specific to gender but it seems that courtesy is becoming a thing of the past. It’s not that the younger generation, there I said it, elects not to be courteous but rather that they don't seem to even know what it is. It seems courtesy is gone and down right rudeness and “its all about me” is the new social norm.

Rant over...

I think perhaps it is a matter of priorities. I actually agree that people can be a lot less considerate in some ways - for example not getting up for a pregnant woman on the train is outrageous. But we are also very conscious of consent, and that a person has a right to individual space. It can be selfishness but it can also be an acceptance that your help or your intrusion is not always the best thing. We wait for requests for help or more clear cut situations of risk, and hopefully there is a happy medium to be found between this and courtesy.

 

[EvaFin]

Now if I hold the door for a woman (pretty, ugly, young, old, doesn't matter), rarely do I get a pleasant nod or thank you (mostly from the old ones). I more often get a surprised look or a scowl. On the other hand, if I get discouraged and don't hold the door, I feel guilty. I guess if I see a woman diver fall in the surf, thrown about by waves, I should stand around unless asked for help. I certainly don't want to be accused of copping a feel (through a wet suit and a BCD, really?)

Oh well, I guess I'll continue to do as my mother taught: be helpful without touching, not because women are inferior, but out of respect.

It's a shame that in a discussion about sexism you didn't include the fact that he made a point of calling my gender into it and made assumptions about why I fell. If he had been in anyway responsible for my safety (thankfully he wasn't) his assumption would have led him to miss that I actually twisted my ankle on the stone.

An offer of a hand would have been so welcome. Even an offer to take my integrated weights. What wasn't was half dragging me up by my BCD strap while making fun of the 'girl' who couldn't carry her tank over to her truck. He didn't request whether I wanted or needed help, but even if he had helped without offering I wouldn't have minded the help (probably still would have been grateful for it) but mocking me for being 'weak' and bringing my gender into it was absolutely unacceptable. I don't believe there is anyone here who would call that considerate, regardless of their generation.

'Be helpful without touching'. The crucial difference.

 

[chillyinCanada]

EvaFin, the guy in your first post and that you refer to again in your post above, is just a jerk. Let it go.

IMNSHO, you'll rarely run into yahoos like him.