DIR- GUE GUE Tech 2 Training Depths

[rjack321]

When is a dive a tech 2 dive? If a diver is cave2 + tech 1 do you think it’s ok to do a 30 meter dive with doubles (ean32), bottomstage (ean32) and oxygen stage at a wreck?

When I wanted to do that dive it was not allowed because people were telling me that it is a tech 2 dive...

Really? What about this is Tech2? Because it sounds like a Ginnie Springs or Jackson Blue (FL) Cave 2 dive minus the rock overhead to me.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

don't disagree if you do it intentionally, but I do know of many instructors that follow hypoxic procedures during normoxic training to prep for hypoxic. The question I asked though was if you're out on a boat and the plan is 250 but you can only get to a 170ft site and you don't find out until you are out there.

That wouldn't have counted in PSAI. That's what has happened in my classes more than once. It gets expensive when the bottom tells you to abort. I think yours was the question I should have asked because that's where my mind was in the asking. You plan a dive to 250 on 15/55 with 15/55 in the bottom stage, Nitrox 50, and oxygen. You reach something above 200 feet (PSAI it's at least 240 for Level 2 and 190 for Level 1) look down and find vis is bad or current is too fast for safety and you abort, but do the entire Tech 2 ascent protocol. The student has learned, "Anyone can call a dive for any reason," and has had the ability to follow ascent procedures. I was wondering if a GUE instructor could count that. I cannot. It's a do-over.

 

[rjack321]

That wouldn't have counted in PSAI. That's what has happened in my classes more than once. It gets expensive when the bottom tells you to abort. I think yours was the question I should have asked because that's where my mind was in the asking. You plan a dive to 250 on 15/55 with 15/55 in the bottom stage, Nitrox 50, and oxygen. You reach something above 200 feet (PSAI it's at least 240 for Level 2 and 190 for Level 1) look down and find vis is bad or current is too fast for safety and you abort, but do the entire Tech 2 ascent protocol. The student has learned, "Anyone can call a dive for any reason," and has had the ability to follow ascent procedures. I was wondering if a GUE instructor could count that. I cannot. It's a do-over.

Not an instructor with GUE or anyone, else but I have DMed some tech courses and newer tech divers on "new to them" sites quite a bit.

If conditions are bad, a 15/55, EAN50, O2 dive to "only" 190ft instead of the course target of 250ft could very well be more challenging - and educational - than the original site in friendly conditions. So saying they only learned how to call or redirect a dive is a bit misleading IMHO. Obviously as you get shallower the relevance fades more and more. Is there a brightline? I don't think so, but doing a 140ft dive on 15/55, a bottom stage and 2 deco gases is clearly not building the higher level experience as intended.

 

[tbone1004]

@Trace Malinowski I've had a lot of discussions with PSAI prior to crossing over about getting stuff like that addressed. I think part of it goes back to Hal and deep air where you actually needed the depth to experience the narcosis, but it has the potential to add significant amounts of unnecessary danger to a course if the conditions are right and an instructor makes a bonehead decision to make the dive anyway

 

[Trace Malinowski]

@rjack321 I didn't mean to imply those were the only two lessons a student might learn. When the visibility dropped here the wreck of the Keystorm at 115 was more challenging with a couple feet of visibility than the Jodrey on a good day as far as setting a trap goes. The students ended up inside the wreck by accident. They learned a lot and class was postponed. I agree that you can learn a lot by venturing into conditions that require you to step up the game to get out of it.

@tbone1004 Yeah. PSAI's point of view beyond Hal's signature course is that they vet you for the depth. Even when using mix the experience of actually being there is deemed important.

 

[barth]

do I think it's ok? yea. fine by me. would your instructor or the various scuba police approve? maybe not

For me it was ok. I did a my cave 2 with same equipment. I did a lot of training dives in open water with the same equipment. I also did dive in caves and mines with the same equipment.

No,a gue instructor didn’t approve. He was at the same place. I told him I wanted to penetrate the wreck as a cave 2 dive and he still didn’t approve. He told me that a wreck dive with bottomstage and deco stage is tech to 2. Cave 2 + tech 1 is not enough.

Really? What about this is Tech2? Because it sounds like a Ginnie Springs or Jackson Blue (FL) Cave 2 dive minus the rock overhead to me.

I did remember that I was writing down a table in my wetnotes when I was doing cave 2. At some point I did write more than 30 minutes deco. I did ask what the deco limit was. There was no deco limit for cave 2. There is also no deco limit on a cave 2 card. In a cave I’m even allowed to do more than 30 minutes of deco....

 

[lv2dive]

I’m really surprised anyone would have a problem with you bringing a stage of bottom gas and one deco gas. It’s not like GUE Tech2 teaches wreck penetration, and you were certified in a cave with a stage of bottom gas and one deco gas - your skills don’t go away just bc you aren’t in a cave.

For me it was ok. I did a my cave 2 with same equipment. I did a lot of training dives in open water with the same equipment. I also did dive in caves and mines with the same equipment....

No,a gue instructor didn’t approve. He was at the same place. I told him I wanted to penetrate the wreck as a cave 2 dive and he still didn’t approve. He told me that a wreck dive with bottomstage and deco stage is tech to 2. Cave 2 + tech 1 is not enough.

...


I did remember that I was writing down a table in my wetnotes when I was doing cave 2. At some point I did write more than 30 minutes deco. I did ask what the deco limit was. There was no deco limit for cave 2. There is also no deco limit on a cave 2 card. In a cave I’m even allowed to do more than 30 minutes of deco....

 

[kensuf]

Trimix is pretend it's shallow. That's why we dive it. Air is one thing. You feel deep. You act deep. Trimix you can dial a high or low and if you want to burn the extra helium cost in OC you can set an END at 40 feet rather than 70 feet or 100 feet. The diving doesn't change. There is a point where pretending would not really help a student. There is also a point where the risk we take in forming bubbles might not be warranted to ensure capability in training. That's just my opinion. As instructors get older, should we subject them to greater age related risks by making them dive deep when DAN says we should back it off? Or, should standards allow experienced instructors to bring 20 or 30 years of trimix experience to classes without placing such educators at greater risk? That's why I was just curious. I'm 50 years old and the river hasn't been nice lately. Conditions are improving. I just did a 21/35 dive at 152 and we had 30 - 40 feet of visibility rather than the less than 5 feet we had for a week or more. Don't worry. As a PSAI instructor I have to be within 10 feet of max course depth.

Lots of thoughts running through my mind..

The diving does change. Gas consumption at depth is real. There's a value in watching a pressure gauge on a stage bottle drop ~15-20 psi per breath to drive home that you have serious time pressure for problem solving while deep diving that you don't have shallow.

I also respect the notion that an instructor should have the ability to abort a particular dive if the conditions are unsafe, this comes back to the golden rule of technical diving.

On the age thing, I'm approaching 50 myself. I'm a firm believer that instructors need annual physicals (my next one is scheduled in January). If a person feels they are incapable of diving deep safely then they probably shouldn't be teaching it.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Ken, I already addressed watching gas go as being a benefit in an earlier post.

I'm going to quit teaching everything soon unlike others who somehow remain instructors into their elder years. But, there are some instructors whose experience might be valuable.

 

[rjack321]

For me it was ok. I did a my cave 2 with same equipment. I did a lot of training dives in open water with the same equipment. I also did dive in caves and mines with the same equipment.

No,a gue instructor didn’t approve. He was at the same place. I told him I wanted to penetrate the wreck as a cave 2 dive and he still didn’t approve. He told me that a wreck dive with bottomstage and deco stage is tech to 2. Cave 2 + tech 1 is not enough.

I did remember that I was writing down a table in my wetnotes when I was doing cave 2. At some point I did write more than 30 minutes deco. I did ask what the deco limit was. There was no deco limit for cave 2. There is also no deco limit on a cave 2 card. In a cave I’m even allowed to do more than 30 minutes of deco....

So did you tell this instructor to "stuff it where the sun don't shine" and do the dive?