Frequency of advanced divers practicing CESAs ? [Poll]

[Gareth J]

Back to the drama, you'll notice that 5% of the divers have 95% of the drama. Those who don't, can't or won't get a clue will always have issues.

The problem is, that 5% often ruin things for every one else. A good outcome is they just spoil the dive, a bad outcome is they leave individuals with a permanent emotional trauma to live with.

As you say, they are not prepared to listen or learn from those that have a lot more experience. Many of the procedures and techniques we now teach have been hard won, often after the lose, or injury to a friend or partner.
We should challenge the status quo, changes can improve safety. But an understanding or why we do something, and an analysis of available new equipment and/or technique are the way to do this.
Once upon a time we used J valves, now we have contents gauges, and J valves have been consigned to history.
Once upon a time we used to use and teach buddy breathing, now we teach the use of the AAS. Most agencies have dropped buddy breathing, due to its difficulties, and the potential risk to both divers.

 

[Dave Bevan]

As an SSI dive instructor or open water course I teach in confined water (~2m) the ESA and EBA. I elect not to teach in the open water part of the class (it is optional in the syllabus).

I ensure the student understands it is a last ditch effort to save their life and is only to be used when the other option is drowning.

I also ensure they understand proper planning procedures. I do like my students to practice air sharing as much as possible. Particularly when they dive with new people and you might have a mixture of primary donate and old style.

 

[TMHeimer]

In theory: We all sit on the platform breathing normally awaiting our turn to do the single CESA that many (most) of us will ever do. Our turn comes, check that box.

Reality: My formal PSD training was very unlike my recreational training and it really differed in only one main way. In recreational training, the idea is to have fun. We aren't always having fun as some of the work is really intense. But even in the advanced training where the real dangers are greatly magnified, you can choose when and where to dive and if that dive is safe enough to carry out under the given situation.

The exercise that I mentioned was a reality check. The question to the students had to do with OOA options and how they would handle them. Remember that this is supposed to be an emergency situation. Most, if not all of the student suggested 'chains of responses' to the emergency failed under stress. So we all start with a real-world wake-up call. Face down in two feet of water, instructor fist-bumps your head and you start finning as hard as you can (for real or you repeat the exercise) and after only 1 minute your instructor fist-bumps you again to switch to your safe second. I passed and was congratulated after my coughing fit subsided.

What did I learn that translates to the recreational world? For me, I said that doing an underwater sprint to get to an OOA diver puts me into a highly compromised state. No, I assure you, I could not do a CESA under that condition.

I understand the drill completely now and think it is a very good one. Don't know what it has to do with an "advanced" diver correctly practicing a CESA. I can surely understand why you would not be able to do a CESA in such a stressed out situation. I'm sure I couldn't either. Again, how does this relate to calmly practicing a CESA? Can't hurt to at least have that skill on the tip of your tongue should the one in a thousand chance of it being needed does occur.

 

[TMHeimer]

@KenGordon, I couldn't agree more with your entire post.

But even with the best of intentions, training, and self-discipline, things can still go sideways. My point is admittedly a small one. Don't assume that you can do something under real-world conditions until you actually try it in real-world conditions. Nothing more than that.

Agree with your point. Though not the stressful situation in the drill you mentioned, that is one of the reasons I mentioned to students that you will not have a nice full breath it you really have to start a CESA. And that I practice it starting with half full lungs. Not the same as finning fast for a minute, but same idea.
Real world conditions means stress, maybe even leading to panic. I would not assume I could do a CESA if I were on that road. Haven't been there (knock wood), so I can't comment.

Two of my questions I don't think were answered--
-- Regarding instructors doing multiple CESAs with a class--If it is not required for the instructor to CESA along with the student, why would they do this?
-- Regarding the various injuries from mistakes occurring during CESA....Yes, these things can and do occur, but because the CESA has not been performed correctly. Is exhaling (ie. keeping the airway open, etc.) and ascending at an acceptable rate from 30' MORE dangerous than making a normal ascent from 30'? If so, why?--other than because of CESA mistakes. I mean, you can be making a normal ascent with reg in mouth and either hold your breath due to panic or ascend too fast, just as you can doing a CESA, no?

 

[Diving Dubai]

Regarding instructors doing multiple CESAs with a class--If it is not required for the instructor to CESA along with the student, why would they do this?

You havign been a DM , Tom, should have some understanding of this, even if you have only watched.

The instructor stays in physical contact with the Student at all times during the ascent. They ensure the student doesn't spit their reg, is exhaling and not inhaling and maintains positive control. The instruct does breath during the ascent.

It's the constant up and downs which can cause issues

The CESA is a dive flexible skill, which means it can be conducted on OW dives 2, 3 or 4. There is no need to CESA all students at once

I personally spread out the CESA's (I'm always on a boat) taking one student at a time leaving the others on the boat and conducting 1 CESA at a time and always at the start of the dive. I do a max of 2 CESA's per dive. Conducting the CESA at the start means I've less N2 build up and I have the rest of the dive to off gas. I have my computer set to conservative and ensure the end of the is always at a reef where we can off gas nicely before then making a SS (for student practice)

Again, I'd rather not do them but if you plan it with some thought you can at least minimize the risk

 

[lowviz]

Again, how does this relate to calmly practicing a CESA?

It doesn't.

A calm CESA under ideal conditions with an instructor in your face every inch of the way to see if you inhale your secondary is the furthest thing from a real-world emergency that there is.

A real CESA would most likely involve an element of stress. If I were an instructor I would separate two students to a maximum 'safe' buddy distance. Maybe even let them choose. Now, the CESA diver swims to buddy as fast as possible, tag, swims back to starting place. 15 seconds to settle down and then do the CESA. I think that you would find that even with this very small stress you would find a difference. A 'Pass' on that CESA exercise would be nothing more than performing the exercise once. My OW CESA was a cake-walk. Hell, I could CESA from a thousand feet. That simple PSD drill changed all that theoretical knowledge in exactly one minute.

(Have no fear, I will never ever be an instructor.)

 

[TMHeimer]

Diving D. Thanks for clearifying that the instructor does breathe doing CESA with a student. I like your method of not doing all those CESAs at once. All the classes I assisted on they were done at once. Some classes had 10 students or more (the usual number may be 7 or so)--with appropriate number of assistants (sometimes even 2 instructors). I don't know if them doing all CESAs at once was just by choice or for a logistical reason.
You are saying that it is the constant ups and downs that causes the issues (as I too have heard), so I may translate that to mean the problems (ear, DCS, etc.) are not caused by doing a proper CESA itself? Up & down a lot causes the same problems, so it is not specific to CESA, I assume? I would think that is the case, as long as the CESA is done properly and slowly.

lowviz, I also like your idea of adding some stress to CESA to make it more realistic. Then again, there are probably other "pool" skills that are done in an unrealistic way--such as the no mask swim. Students are given exact descriptions beforehand on how it will be done in the pool. Not realistic. Maybe some other skills fit that as well.
With a CESA, the instructor says to "have arms in this position, keep reg in, exhale slowly and make an Ahhhh sound". We know the Ahhhh is just so the instructor KNOWS the airway is open--it is not necessary (you can exhale the air in your mouth of course, while your airway is closed--can't do that saying Ahhhh). I think each skill is done as "safely" as possible to insure there are no accidents during the course. Thus, though I somewhat agree with it, I doubt a "stressful" CESA would ever come into being. It may be a better idea for an experienced diver to do that.
Gets back to the OP's poll--asking about experienced divers calmly practicing it.

I suppose this thread is about both sides pretty much "sticking to their guns". I did a rough estimate that I've probably done a CESA 150-200 times over 13 years from 20-30' (the bottom) without incident. The other "normal" shallow ups and downs to check location hasn't seemed to hurt me either (I do equalize about as easy as anyone, right from day one). For me, it seems very safe and means I have that extra tool in my box.
Someone mentioned CESA is a last resort to get to the surface. I always thought a buoyant ascent with weights ditched was such.

 

[lowviz]

lowviz, I also like your idea of adding some stress to CESA to make it more realistic.

My work is done here, knock yourself out.

 

[markmud]

I certainly don't and I advise divers to avoid doing so.

• There are serious injuries that can and have happened during a CESA
  • Ear Barotrauma
  • Lung Barotrauma
  • Embolism
  • AGE
  • DCS
• Better to develop the skills that obviate the need for a CESA
  • Gas Planning
    • Includes gas checking
  • Buddy Skills
    • They are your redundant air source
    • Buddy Awareness
    • Know & check their air often
    • They should be doing the same for you
  • Overall dive planning

Hi Pete,

I liked your post.

Personally, I have added a few bullet points to your list:

• Get solo certified to learn the skills and gear to be self-reliant. Self-reliant even while diving in the buddy system. (includes skills to manage a redundant air source)
• Get Tech 40 (or higher) certified to learn more about dive planning and discipline u/w. Tech 40 is an intro into real buddy diving and buddy diving skills. My instructor taught us tech skills while working u/w. (ie: search and recovery or navigating between multiple points). My point is this: He kept us busy in order to train us to multi-task--to work and dive safely while following our dive plan.

OP:

I have not practiced a CESA since OW instruction.

I believe, in reality, that an Advanced Diver has these credentials plus experience:

1. 50 logged dives in various open ocean or open ocean-like circumstances (Lake Superior is not an Ocean, but close enough);
   1. AND, Master Recreational Diver Certification, DM, or similar certification.
2. 100 logged dives in various open ocean-like circumstances;
   1. AND, AOW certification.

Experience and training does matter.

cheers,
markm

 

[Sam Miller III]

I certainly agree with @lowvis . the diving guru of New Jersey and a student of Bob Cronkwright's demanding ACUC dive certification that a free assent or a CESA should be a component of a good through skin and SCUBA course. (Bob and I were correspondents on training when he was developing the requirements for the program, I was offered to be a ACUC instructor but never filled out the registration)

But today a component is lacking and that is watermanship, Just read this post -- or read any post. Apparently swimming and watermsnship is considered an option in todays diving community. The modern tube sucking diver relys on equipment but when equipment fails the diver becomes and instant swimmer with little or no watermsnship abilities.

In the beginning in 1954 there was one certifying organization that was the very demanding LA Co UW Instructors Association who created the world's first certifying program, the Underwater Instructor's Certifying Course commonly referred to as "UICC"

Many apply, a select few are accepted and even less graduate to become LA Co UW instructors.


The course required a D&R at 33 plus feet in open ocean which I did with my partner, the late great Bill Barada (look him up ) We removed the double hose regulator and tank and surfaced via a free asent or a CESA, . pumped up on the surface and zoomed down to recover the equipment

The 100 foot free assent (aka CESA) was performed at Catalina at Italian Gardens. the candidate faced the dive master ( team leader) took a hit and spit out his regulator. he heads for the surface with the dive master holding on to the SCUBA straps all the way to the surface .

Every one who passed the course performed a CESA with out any problems.

"Practice under controlled conditions what you may need to do under emergency panic conditions"

In1967 LA County developed the world's first Advance Diver Program the three months long "ADP. " It require the student to perform a free assent a "CESA" from 33 feet.

The program also required the students to maintain a LA Co dive log - the first time a dive log was required and it was the second dive log ever created-which was developed by the LA Co SR Aquatics specialist Tom Ebro -which was copied by NAUI and later PADI

The very first commercial first Dive Log was created by the late Dick Bonin in 1955 while employed at the Chicago based dive company "Dive Master" ( you may recognize the name ) Dick was a co founder of SCUBA Pro in 1963- Lets give credit were credit is do...

Dick as an USN officer under Doug Fane (read his book The Naked Warriors or view the movie - Zale Parry is Doug's daughter and @drbills friend ) They were testing regulator performance under the artic ice and Dick's regulator froze - he made a free assent under ice from 200 + feet

Every diver I certified in almost 30 years of instruction as LA Co, NAUI, PADI CMAS and other certifications all did a 33 CSEA as part of Catalina dive experience. Not one had difficulty.

While training and diving with my young son, what seems like in retrospect we dove every day and night , I made a rule that he could only dive as deep as he could perform a free assent aka CESA. I rescinded the requirement at 66 feet -As an adult pre med student Sam IV and Jeff Bozanic were drilling 300 & 400 foot holes in the Pacific -Good training pays !

Sam IV is now Director of ER& Hyperbarics at a California reginal hospital, so aa free ascending or CESA apparently had no short term or long term affect on him

I have made innumerable free assents CSCA as a basic instructor and as a UICC dive master from 100 and one from, GOK, how many feet ? when my regulator and lift bag became one and away I went all tangled and dangled to the surface,.

Today, my age and with my long history of CESAs I suspect I could blow and go aka CSCA from any reasonable depth, once perfected CESAs should be an automatic reflex

I still recall the LA Co motto

"Blow and Go; Flair and you are There !" --

Sam Miller, III