A need to rehash our discussion on primary donate

[Kharon]

It's important for me to discuss the strategy I want to use with my buddy prior to the dive.

I almost exclusively dive solo. BUT when I'm going to be in the water with someone else It is imperrative to clearly discuss and demonstrate the only way OOA donation works with my rig.

For my comfort I have a very short primary hose - no where near long enough for another diver to breathe from and I'm simply not going to swap it out for a very long one on the few occasions where there will be other divers in the water. Especially since the probablity of an OOA event is vanishingly small with well trained & responsible divers that have well maintained equipment.

I have set up a pony on a very convienent sling. The octo is on my right shoulder clipped on with a QR magnetic holder. The pony is alway on and it's held with QR shackles. That hose is fairly long. The entire rig is bright yellow. If someone needs it, they only have to pull the yellow octo free and breathe. I will immediately pop the shackles and hand the pony to them (it has a handle). This is discussed and demonstrated long before it's time to splash. I consider that method far safer than handing off a primary and being tied to a possibly panicked diver who could pull me up in an uncontrolled ascent.

Everyone may vehemently disagree, however, it's my life at risk and I have final say on what I consider the safest protocol for me. I prefer to dive solo and if the protocol I conform to isn't acceptable, then you needn't depend on me. In fact, I'd rather you wouldn't. I believe it's every divers responsibility to garner the skills and equipment to be self-sufficient. Safer for you - safer for me.

I've found a few things that are accepted as "best practice" in scuba that I fairly strongly disagree with. They seem to have sprung from whole cloth without much evidence and were just accepted because some "authority" said so. I put them in the same catagory as old wives tales.

 

[tbone1004]

@wedivebc can't pass off the heavy steel tanks safely, and in true sidemount restrictions, you may not be able to move the bottle up to another diver.

For those arguing for dual long hoses, or even dual short hoses, when you are in really tight passages, it is easy for a hose to get yanked out of your mouth if it isn't supported by your neck. When you are on long scooter dives, it also tends to be much less comfortable from a jaw fatigue perspective. That jaw fatigue is a big benefit of BOV's for cave diving since you can bailout to the bov without having a loop flapping around

 

[MichaelMc]

I think mixed teams are a reality for any rec sidemount, which seems to have modest interest, and many will not be highly trained.

I don't see 'take' being a good solution, too many variations on which reg to take. The tech 'what reg is safe' becomes a sidemount 'what hose is routed where'. So only the donor has an informed view. Unless we go to a very simple hose routing, like always bungeed to the tank and routed straight up, or on a same side breakaway. But you lose the necklace access that way, for an uncommon take scenario, and the issues tbone raises.

If it is donate, "here is my stowed primary" or "here is my primary, I'll find my secondary" seems no harder than "here is my 'octo'". Just you need to do better than 'clipped off', in terms of release mechanism. And I haven't solved the release mechanism yet for me.

I don't think appealing to divers staying current on procedures is a good plan. If designing the system well is an alternative.

If you're in a cave, everyone should be redundant for at least a few minutes.

(from my lowly 20 rec. sidemount dives perspective..., and ~80 dives primary donate.)

 

[The Chairman]

If you're in a cave, everyone should be redundant for at least a few minutes.

For the entire dive!

 

[kensuf]

The only time I've ever actually had to donate air to someone in an overhead environment, the recipient wasn't part of my dive team. As a result of that experience, I'll always carry a 7' hose on a cave dive.

The twin 5' hose thing for sidemount floors me. I have several friends that I respect dearly that push it, but I think it's misguided and dangerous. A 7' hose is really just barely long enough for most people to go single file through a restriction (think "the corn flakes") when diving backmount. With the twin 5' hose configuration now you're shortening that hose by 2' AND placing the first stage a good 18" further away from the person you're donating too. This doesn't make sense.

In sidemount, I'd prefer to give him the hose I'm breathing from, even if it's a shorter hose, get his breathing under control and him sorted out, then get him on a 7' hose for our exit.

Bottle swapping is outright stupid. Tom already explained some good reasons why so I won't repeat them.

When diving the CCR, I clip the long hose off under the loop on my right d-ring, just like AJ mentioned. If my dive buddy bails out for any reason, I will immediately prepare myself to donate the hose (close DSV and go to my backup reg, unclip long hose, free long hose, go back on loop) so I'm ready if he needs gas.

I still run the risk of being unable to donate quickly to an OC person that jumps me for gas, but that's the risk I have for being on the loop.

 

[Coztick]

As an ow sm diver, it's usually a single plus pony for me so primary donate.
On a resort type dive boat the majority may be secondary take. Apart from informing your buddy on sop, I think the doner reg. being yellow is the best for the beginner crowd. Like the rental fleet everywhere.
They may question where it is but would probably hone in on the YELLOW one. I think in your yap or on your shoulder is equally visable. Simplifies the briefing too.

Take the YELLOW one regardless.

 

[rjack321]

So far it has worked well - except my breakaways - the O ring method isn't' suitable (they break within a month in our climate) So I'm open to ideas on that one and interested in how the discussion goes and seeing what I can glean

On CCR you can put the long hose 2nd stage mouthpiece through a loop of bungie and clip that off. Not very practical to swap to regularly though.
True OC SM cave you can fairly safely use conventional cave line and tie off the 2nd stage on the long hose. Everyone there has redundant gas and in small spaces getting mugged isn't likely.
In open water... don't dive SM. The clipped off long hose is one of the many reasons why SM is not always a great tool.

 

[MichaelMc]

For the entire dive!

My point is I think this issue, of whether primary donate is still preferred, plays out in OW sidemount doubles.

Singles and doubles back mount: Primary donate seems better. Singles covers most divers, and the less trained ones.

Side doubles (OW): Two primaries, so it gets complicated. Calling one of the stowed primaries an octo does not help the sidemount case, and just degrades the back mount case.
ETA: If you dive sidemount for narrow caves, but also on the boat/shore for continuity, you're now in OW sidemount....

Rebreather, double hose: There is no option. But should be more trained buddies.

Caves: Instant access, by another diver, should not be the issue.

But I don't live the double hose or rebreather world.... (or cave, or sidemount for very long yet.)

 

[rjack321]

The twin 5' hose thing for sidemount floors me. I have several friends that I respect dearly that push it, but I think it's misguided and dangerous. A 7' hose is really just barely long enough for most people to go single file through a restriction (think "the corn flakes") when diving backmount. With the twin 5' hose configuration now you're shortening that hose by 2' AND placing the first stage a good 18" further away from the person you're donating too. This doesn't make sense.

See this is where the OOA diver turns around and faces the donating diver. Stays in front and all that, but exits feet first. The flow in the cornflakes is plenty to push them both out facing each other. Then they can swim side-by-side afterwards again for a minute or two before the OOA diver turns around and exits the lips feet first. After that they are all good.








AMIRIGHT?

 

[tbone1004]

@rjack321 and @The Chairman so what is the downside to running a pair of 7' hoses? What do you gain by using 5'? I've been running 9' long hose in sidemount for 9 years and it's never been an issue. Granted I use HP120's or LP121's, so long tanks, but still, what is the gain with 5'?