Latent organizational weakness

[diverrex]

Correct he


My apologies for not further elaborating on that statement. In our initial OW class. Never have I heard to bend and role a hose to look for cracks etc, never have I heard in the initial class to inspect tank o-rings, never have I heard in the initial class to dry breath the reg and look at the spg. Etc. However they did emphasize to dry breath the regs and all the other checks. These other fundamentals were referenced in later classes. I just feel that if human errors that I mentioned are not just noticed by me, but others and brought to the attention of the responsible staff why would that individual be allowed to further progress to advanced or even stress and rescue if they cant identify and address their issues? A good tool we use where I work it a laminated card call a TAM. Take a minute it is a checklist to quickly run through and identify potential issues/hazards. It would be nice to have a small card like that for divers to carry and reference so the forgetful ones can read through. I am not typing this to flame, criticize, etc. I am just genuinely concerned about the safety culture. It just seems like the "recreational" aspect of recreational diving is over emphasized as "fun". To which case it is, but it should as well be safe.

Recreational diving is relatively safe. Some divers have practices that are safer than others. A card like you mention might be useful for you or others, I myself would never carry one.

Some people drive over the speed limit, some don’t. Some people still don’t use seat belts. Diving isn’t different.

 

[Fin Finder]

It would be nice to have a small card like that for divers to carry and reference so the forgetful ones can read through.

DIY

 

[Rooster59]

I think you can be too helpful. Some people are "first the test, then the lesson" types and have to learn everything the hard way. It's the only way they learn, and it's scary when it shows up in scuba.

 

[northernone]

I'm happy with many dive styles.

Some people need to scare themselves (and their buddy) before they choose to change their methods.

If someone wants to learn from well-meaning and kind advice, wonderful.

If they are happy as they are, I just hope whoever they are with is skilled enough to keep them safe while they make mistakes which may prompt them to adopt less risky behaviour.

Enjoy your own diving!
Cameron

 

[Diver0001]

I am in know way calling myself a subject matter expert when it comes to diving. When looking at my credentials I've only been diving a year. With that I want to lead into a concern of mine with an individual I have dove with on several occasions, and the actions I have taken to mitigate risks associated with the individual.

Myself and three of my friends know this individual and it all started when we started our advanced classes and in our stress and rescue class. This person consistently drops weights (forgets to clip them in) has forgotten to connect his bcd inflator hose and jumped in the water and started to sink like a rock, etc. I am completely aware of checking your buddy and in my case I am over cautious when it comes to pre dive inspections. I understand I am in know way a technical diver, but in that being said I check everything, I lightly bend hoses to check for degradation, I visually inspect o rings, dry breath all regs and watch my spg, tap on the spg to see if the needle isn't stuck, double check all connections and when in the water we check for leaks before we descend etc.

So we noticed this individuals apparent lack of attention to detail and we all check him out before a dive. We are all genuinely concerned for his safety. I have spoken to this person on several occasions about their issues to know avail. I have spoken to the dive shop owner and the answer I get is "he's just a millennial". This concerns me to the point of asking you all. It seems to me that dive shops in general just want to push "numbers" through for a profit and not genuinely take the time to make sure the individuals they teach have the processes and procedures down pat. Why aren't more stringent checks taught? Why isn't there an over emphasis for a better safety culture? I am not necessarily blaming the dive shop moreover I am blaming the organization for not having more stringent standards. What are your opinions? Or am I being over cautious?

I once had a diver in my secondary ring of diving buddies who was a genuine danger to himself and others. We tried to help him but eventually everyone stopped diving with him. He was just one of those people who seriously needed a different hobby. By isolating him and denying him of diving buddies I believe he stopped diving altogether, which is the most help we were able to give him.

As for characterizing yourself as a "material expert" after year of diving and few dozen dives, I suggest you google the "Dunning-Kruger effect" and familiarize yourself with it. It may be an eye-opener.

R..

 

[Graeme Fraser]

I am in know way calling myself a subject matter expert when it comes to diving. When looking at my credentials I've only been diving a year. With that I want to lead into a concern of mine with an individual I have dove with on several occasions, and the actions I have taken to mitigate risks associated with the individual.

Myself and three of my friends know this individual and it all started when we started our advanced classes and in our stress and rescue class. This person consistently drops weights (forgets to clip them in) has forgotten to connect his bcd inflator hose and jumped in the water and started to sink like a rock, etc. I am completely aware of checking your buddy and in my case I am over cautious when it comes to pre dive inspections. I understand I am in know way a technical diver, but in that being said I check everything, I lightly bend hoses to check for degradation, I visually inspect o rings, dry breath all regs and watch my spg, tap on the spg to see if the needle isn't stuck, double check all connections and when in the water we check for leaks before we descend etc.

So we noticed this individuals apparent lack of attention to detail and we all check him out before a dive. We are all genuinely concerned for his safety. I have spoken to this person on several occasions about their issues to know avail. I have spoken to the dive shop owner and the answer I get is "he's just a millennial". This concerns me to the point of asking you all. It seems to me that dive shops in general just want to push "numbers" through for a profit and not genuinely take the time to make sure the individuals they teach have the processes and procedures down pat. Why aren't more stringent checks taught? Why isn't there an over emphasis for a better safety culture? I am not necessarily blaming the dive shop moreover I am blaming the organization for not having more stringent standards. What are your opinions? Or am I being over cautious?

It's good to know you take your pre-dive safety checks seriously and still apply it to every dive. For the record all the agencies I know include and reinforce proper checks throughout the OW course.

Depending on what agency you train with, students are expected to carry out kit assembly, test and buddy check a minimum 5 times before finishing pool training, let alone their OW. Well practised checks take a matter of minutes and there are no excuses for skipping them.

As instructors, we stress to students that a significant number of dive related incidents could easily be prevented before even entering the water.

I think marie13 and others are right, sometimes you've got to cut your losses and concentrate on those who dive the way you want to dive. Otherwise you'll always be anxious and quickly become despondent.

With regards to the rescue course, maybe he would genuinely benefit from this. This course has plenty of nasty little surprises and, if done effectively, could knock the complacency out of him. If the instructor sees him slacking and not taking it seriously it'll be like a red rag to a bull.

Anyway regardless of this guy, stick to the good habits you've picked up and try to enjoy your diving.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Report him to....

 

[kablooey]

Why isn't there an over emphasis for a better safety culture?

Show me another sport with a better "safety culture".
With better training?
With better standards?

Safety is not just about check lists and hose cracks.
Not all emergencies are about the gear.
A lot are medical or mental. Show me a check list for that.

• Learn dive rescue.
• Get CPR proficient.
• Learn how to aid a panicked or unconscious diver.
• Become a watcher, not a talker.

Training organizations have little effect at the small group or individual level.
If you are truly concerned about this, and not using this just to gloss yourself up,
then you need to take action when you see something that isn't right.

If you want to make a real difference, don't just post about your skills and the lack of skills in others.
Get the experience, get the training, do the work...
And become an instructor, or other level of dive professional.

If not, pick your buddies better, and give the rest of us the chance to learn from our mistakes.
We all know the risks.

If you are not a professional, then I am not your responsibility,
and I don't want to be.


k

 

[Craig Myers]

Show me another sport with a better "safety culture".
With better training?
With better standards?

Safety is not just about check lists and and hose cracks.
Not all emergencies are about the gear.
A lot are medical or mental. Show me a check list for that.

• Learn dive rescue.
• Get CPR proficient.
• Learn how to aid a panicked or unconscious diver.
• Become a watcher, not a talker.

Training organizations have little effect at the small group or individual level.
If you are truly concerned about this, and not using this just to gloss yourself up,
then you need to take action when you see something that isn't right.

If you want to make a real difference, don't just post about your skills and the lack of skills in others.
Get the experience, get the training, do the work...
And become an instructor, or other level of dive professional.

If not, pick your buddies better, and give the rest of us the chance to learn from our mistakes.
We all know the risks.

If you are not a professional, then I am not your responsibility,
and I don't want to be.


k

If you read my first post I never stated anything to the effect of "glorifying my skills" I simply stated what I practice and what another individual doesn't. And the concern I have for that person. And am simply asking the opinions of others. I respect your opinion but please do not take me as some "individual" trying to glorify how great of a diver I am. As I am not. And further note my focus is not on "physical or mental " issues it was on what I have stated. And I have taken "actions" as stated in my first post, even talking to the "professionals". My question was if you take "actions" and get know where do you quit as not being as "professional" so it's not your problem or do you keep with them to help fix their behaviors over time. I'm sure in your career you have had individuals with poor safety culture live on and ones that dont. And I am not bashing this sports safety culture as there is probabilistic risk associated with any sport.

 

[Diver0001]

If you read my first post I never stated anything to the effect of "glorifying my skills" I simply stated what I practice and what another individual doesn't. And the concern I have for that person. And am simply asking the opinions of others. I respect your opinion but please do not take me as some "individual" trying to glorify how great of a diver I am. As I am not.

I think what "kablooey" (pretty sure this is a screen name and not her real name) is trying to say is pretty much what I was suggesting in my post when I mentioned the Dunning-Kruger effect.

It turns out that by no fault of our own that people who "don't know what they don't know" are both (a) more likely than they deserve to be convinced that they possess knowledge and expertise that they do not and (b) far more likely than others to overstate their level of competence in a specific area because they literally lack the expertise needed to identify their own lack of it.

You can see this effect at work on the news every single day, which will give you some examples to watch, although I don't want to make the post about popular culture or politics. Once you can see this, you see it EVERYWHERE.

I think what several of us have triggered on in this thread is that you start the OP by describing yourself as a subject matter expert (which, I can assure you, you are not) and then carry on to eventually speak authoritatively on the "mistakes" of training agencies, even blaming them for the situation your struggling buddy finds himself in.

... and let me be clear that this is not to blame you for anything. We are ALL guilty of this in some context or another. It's a human condition and not some specific failing of you as an individual that shows up only here.

It is, however, very much relevant to the OP, so I would challenge you to view what you said there from the perspective of someone who may, indeed, be a subject matter expert.

R..