Latent organizational weakness

[markmud]

Although any business is working for a profit, there is a set of standards that are used in each class to properly train a diver. Since, it seems you are taking the same training, your friend had to pass that same training so he knows the proper procedures.

As for more stringent standards, we might like them, but there is no way to enforce the class behavior after a diver has their card. All the diver has to do is pass the class, it may just mean stepping up their game for the class, then reverting to their normal behavior.

As for safety culture, I've been a solo diver for 50+ years and have heard all the lectures. All are well meaning, safety conscious, and other than a few bits, have been ignored by me.

And of course the big question, would you like any instructor, shop, or agency to have the ability to revoke your C-card as they see fit in order to keep you safe untill you could prove yourself worthy by taking OW again?

As for your friend, you tried to help and are frustrated, you did what you can do. Before you and your other friends move on, sit down one on one and let him know why you will no longer dive with him. It could change his attitude, definatly will change his dive buddies. I limit my time as a mentor to those that want the help.

As far as caution, you should pick your dive buddys that are compatible with your diving. I will dive with almost anyone once, sometimes more, but I've only had a handful of real trusted buddies the whole time I've been diving.



Bob

Hi Craig,

There have been many really good posts on this thread.

Bob DBF's post is probably the best. Diver0001's posts have been good even though he did not quite understand your intent on the first go-round.

Focus on yourself. Learn to be self-reliant. Take difficult cert courses. I thought the courses that shaped my diving the most was Self-Reliant and Tech 40. Rescue is good course.

Think for yourself, protect yourself, and learn to stay away from train wrecks. Dive and let dive... dealing with different styles of diving.

The training I received covered everything you say is lacking in diver training. I use those protocols on almost every dive, and things have still happened. I have jumped in the water with my gas off, because the skipper turned it off as I was walking to the stern of the boat. I now breath the reg and watch the SPG right before I splash.

I did two dives with the inflator hose disconnected from my BC. I didn't know it until I got back onboard after the last dive of the day.

I knew what to do. No big deal.

The biggest and hardest lesson I have learned is to choose my buddy carefully. Or, dive solo. Or become the third wheel with a group (benign recreational diving, not tech).

I am no-ones lifeguard. I will help someone in need, but the dive will be thumbed after the threat is mitigated.

Look inwards, and learn to become self-reliant u/w. Get training for redundant gear.

I try to be the best wing-man a fellow diver will have. However, if you fail me, we will end the dive and I will dive solo after that.

cheers,
markm

 

[Craig Myers]

I do plan on that in aspect of self reliance and redundant gear. As I continue to dive I would like to press on in different modules of training. Just concerned as this person moves on to other walks in life that if there bad habits aren't corrected now we may read about them or their buddy in the future. Not saying that will actually happen, but obviously we as his friends know it because we've seen it in the training environment and we've seen the same behavior outside the training environment. But once this person dives with different people in life that new "dive buddy" will not be aware of the issue if we dont do are due diligence and try and help him now. And also please be aware I am in no way saying he is alive because of how super "attentive to every detail" we might assume we are. Because we are human also. My main point is as in your statement I am going to do everything I can to be a good dive buddy. He just seems "spaced out" and not really engaged in certain aspects.

 

[johndiver999]

There are some people I will not dive with because they scare me. Everyone can get careless, distracted, complacent. Etc. but if you see huge warning signs about excessive tendencies toward being an airhead or careless, then avoid that diver.

It is not an issue of dive and let dive ( or die) because these people can get in trouble and present a real and significant danger to you when you get wrapped up in their emergency.

Some people shouldn’t dive. It takes a certain level of responsibility and attention to detail- not a whole lot
In most situations, but you still need some.

If your common sense says avoid them, then do so. Sorta like driving with your 85 yr old uncle at the wheel.

 

[TMHeimer]

I'll throw in a few bits.
--I have only seen one buddy duo doing a formal buddy check before entering (shore dive).
--Most buddy checks I've seen on charters were cursory.
--I make sure we agree on a plan and how we release each other's weights.
--If you are a "single" diver on a boat you often have no choice as to who is your "instabuddy".
--Lack of skills "Mastery" (we must define that term, as per an old thread) probably has mostly to do with short lengths of OW courses.
--OW courses are shorter than in 1975 because people seem to have busier schedules now (do they?), want everything to be quick and easy and inexpensive. It seems to be the general business modal. I know there are exceptions.
--I would take the MYOB advice given regarding this diver. There are people destined to get in serious trouble while diving, or while doing anything. You can't save the World.

 

[Craig Myers]

I'll throw in a few bits.
--I have only seen one buddy duo doing a formal buddy check before entering (shore dive).
--Most buddy checks I've seen on charters were cursory.
--I make sure we agree on a plan and how we release each other's weights.
--If you are a "single" diver on a boat you often have no choice as to who is your "instabuddy".
--Lack of skills "Mastery" (we must define that term, as per an old thread) probably has mostly to do with short lengths of OW courses.
--OW courses are shorter than in 1975 because people seem to have busier schedules now (do they?), want everything to be quick and easy and inexpensive. It seems to be the general business modal. I know there are exceptions.
--I would take the MYOB advice given regarding this diver. There are people destined to get in serious trouble while diving, or while doing anything. You can't save the World.

Very good point sir. Thanks

 

[markmud]

He just seems "spaced out" and not really engaged in certain aspects.

Yeah, follow the advice of Johndiver999, he wrote:

If your common sense says avoid them, then do so. Sorta like driving with your 85 yr old uncle at the wheel.

If you don't like that, try this from TMHeimer:

--I would take the MYOB advice given regarding this diver. There are people destined to get in serious trouble while diving, or while doing anything. You can't save the World.

To conclude,
I am pushing 60. The older I get, the less inclined I am to help people. People who want my help will ask. Those that don't have the balls to ask don't get my help. You had the balls.

Most people are usually seeking confirmation for their actions, beliefs, or lifestyle choices; they really don't want my, or your help. Most people don't like my opinions because my opinions are based in personal responsibility.

If your buddy does not care about being a safe diver, after you tell him to dive safe--at that point, why should you care? You won't change him. Keep yourself safe by avoiding him.

Are you the person who asks for help but won't listen to what others are offering?

Diving is not like going to a restaurant. Your friend's crappy behavior at a restaurant is embarrassing. Your dive buddy's lack of seriousness about safety protocols could kill you (in a worst case scenario).

markm

 

[jlcnuke]

I am in no way calling myself a subject matter expert when it comes to diving. When looking at my credentials I've only been diving a year. With that I want to lead into a concern of mine with an individual I have dove with on several occasions, and the actions I have taken to mitigate risks associated with the individual.

Myself and three of my friends know this individual and it all started when we started our advanced classes and in our stress and rescue class. This person consistently drops weights (forgets to clip them in) has forgotten to connect his bcd inflator hose and jumped in the water and started to sink like a rock, etc. I am completely aware of checking your buddy and in my case I am over cautious when it comes to pre dive inspections. I understand I am in know way a technical diver, but in that being said I check everything, I lightly bend hoses to check for degradation, I visually inspect o rings, dry breath all regs and watch my spg, tap on the spg to see if the needle isn't stuck, double check all connections and when in the water we check for leaks before we descend etc.

So we noticed this individuals apparent lack of attention to detail and we all check him out before a dive. We are all genuinely concerned for his safety. I have spoken to this person on several occasions about their issues to know avail. I have spoken to the dive shop owner and the answer I get is "he's just a millennial". This concerns me to the point of asking you all. It seems to me that dive shops in general just want to push "numbers" through for a profit and not genuinely take the time to make sure the individuals they teach have the processes and procedures down pat. Why aren't more stringent checks taught? Why isn't there an over emphasis for a better safety culture? I am not necessarily blaming the dive shop moreover I am blaming the organization for not having more stringent standards. What are your opinions? Or am I being over cautious?

I've done the OW course twice in my life, using two different agencies, and both times we were taught to do buddy checks and to visually verify that the SPG isn't dropping when breathing from the reg etc. If your OW instructor failed you by not teaching those things, then that's a fault of that particular instructor, not of any particular agency.

Now, on to the important stuff:
Your blame is misplaced. It is not the fault of any agency that after being trained, and being told by concerned dive buddies/friends that the individual in question continues to exhibit a lack of concern for safety. it is the fault of your friend. Blame him for failing to properly take care of himself and his equipment for diving. That's his fault for not giving his safety the respect and attention it deserves. You can make all the cards you'd like, and PADI could hand them out for free to every person that takes any class with them, and your buddy would still go out there and screw things up because he hasn't decided to take responsibility for ensuring his is ready to dive safely before splashing. The onus for that is all on him.

You shouldn't dive with such a person but, as they are your friend, I'd suggest telling them why you won't dive with them anymore so maybe they'll understand how serious their issue is in your eyes.

 

[jgttrey]

So, I agree with the consensus, which seems to be: (1) if a conversation can encourage better/safer diving practices, have it; (2) but ultimately as a certified diver, this person is responsible for their ownself, and; (3) don't dive with someone that you feel is unsafe, just don't.

Maybe we should have some posts about the first thing: how does one diplomatically have that conversation if it is a friend or maybe just someone that dives in your circles and you're going to keep having this issue? Walking away is sometime necessary, but it's easy and nobody needs advice about how to do it.

It's easy just to say "tell them," but what are some thoughts about how to do it in a way that might generate a positive reaction? After all, the best outcome here is that this person sees the error of their ways and becomes a safer diver. Sounds touchy-feely, but the goal is to have them listen and change, not merely have your words bounce off them.

Options/ideas? My thoughts:

You cannot come across as "me better diver." Not saying OP did, but you can see that even the misperception of that in this thread generated a lot of push back. Find something good to say about diving with them, don't teach at them, and make it real.

"Hey, I've enjoyed diving with you and wish I had your XZY skills (buoyancy, SAC rate, whatever). But, I gotta tell you that it stresses me when we don't take 2 minutes to do a buddy check or equipment check, or whatever. Those things are important to me to enjoy my dive and not worry about other team members, even if those team members don't need me worrying about them, and it's just a good idea. Can we spend a little more time on that stuff, even if it's just to humor me?"

I know it sounds all soft, but it's a non-threatening, non-judgmental way of making the point and if this person has half a brain, they'll get it. If they don't, you've laid the groundwork for why you won't be on the team with them.

 

[Craig Myers]

So, I agree with the consensus, which seems to be: (1) if a conversation can encourage better/safer diving practices, have it; (2) but ultimately as a certified diver, this person is responsible for their ownself, and; (3) don't dive with someone that you feel is unsafe, just don't.

Maybe we should have some posts about the first thing: how does one diplomatically have that conversation if it is a friend or maybe just someone that dives in your circles and you're going to keep having this issue? Walking away is sometime necessary, but it's easy and nobody needs advice about how to do it.

It's easy just to say "tell them," but what are some thoughts about how to do it in a way that might generate a positive reaction? After all, the best outcome here is that this person sees the error of their ways and becomes a safer diver. Sounds touchy-feely, but the goal is to have them listen and change, not merely have your words bounce off them.

Options/ideas? My thoughts:

You cannot come across as "me better diver." Not saying OP did, but you can see that even the misperception of that in this thread generated a lot of push back. Find something good to say about diving with them, don't teach at them, and make it real.

"Hey, I've enjoyed diving with you and wish I had your XZY skills (buoyancy, SAC rate, whatever). But, I gotta tell you that it stresses me when we don't take 2 minutes to do a buddy check or equipment check, or whatever. Those things are important to me to enjoy my dive and not worry about other team members, even if those team members don't need me worrying about them, and it's just a good idea. Can we spend a little more time on that stuff, even if it's just to humor me?"

I know it sounds all soft, but it's a non-threatening, non-judgmental way of making the point and if this person has half a brain, they'll get it. If they don't, you've laid the groundwork for why you won't be on the team with them.

Good input and I think some of the push back was due to a grammatical error on my part on the initial post.

 

[Esprise Me]

I've done the OW course twice in my life, using two different agencies, and both times we were taught to do buddy checks and to visually verify that the SPG isn't dropping when breathing from the reg etc. If your OW instructor failed you by not teaching those things, then that's a fault of that particular instructor, not of any particular agency.

Maybe so, but I think it ought to be in the manual, and for PADI it isn't.