What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

OHP is three days by itself or can be combined with cave1 for a five (or sometimes 6) day class
Overhead Protocols · UTD Scuba Diving

I would say combining OHP with cave 1 is more likely than combining UTD cave 1 &2. But I don't even know how much market UTD even has for cave training honestly, it seems fairly small to me.

Exactly. UTD Cave 1 and Cave 2 begins after completing Overhead Protocols. To me that is a better way of breaking down the course because OHP can be done in your local quarry. This is where you will need a lot of remedial work so when you arrive in Mexico then you can commit that to applying what you have already drilled into a cave environment. Actual training days are equal to GUE course its just that you have done a lot of the prep work before you arrive at the destination.

 

[The Chairman]

You don't have to lose to be miserable.

Again, the probability that you will be sued are incredibly small. It's not a matter of losing/winning: it's simply incredibly rare for a suit to materialize in the absence of an injury or fatality. If you don't want to or can't be bothered, then fine. But citing a potential law suit is a cop out. It's like saying I won't dive, cuz sharks.

 

[tbone1004]

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

Ignoring UTD because I don't know much about their course.

Edd's
Cavern-2 days
Intro-2 days
App-2 days
Cave-2 days
Overhead deco-3 days
Total-11 days @ $200/day/student for 2 or 3 students


GUE
Fundies-5 days
Cave 1-5 days
Cave 2-5 days
Total-15 days @ average of $350/day
Courses can't be taken solo, so fair comparison against Edd's pricing above.

The important numbers up there are $/day assuming the minimum number of days, and in this case they are pretty different.
So what makes GUE worth almost twice Edd? For reference, Edd charges what is basically the standard fees for Florida ($200/day for group, $300/day solo), so that will be the same whether you are getting true top notch experienced instructors, or new ones. With GUE, you are getting consistency with teaching, a premium certification, and potential access to whatever projects they're doing down the road. Is it worth the premium? It was not to me, but is to many. You need to decide if the benefits of having a GUE card are worth almost twice the cost to you.

 

[Superlyte27]

I wonder what it would cost me to start over with GUE to have the same level of certs as I have now.

CCR Cave Instructor & Trimix.

I'm guessing more than 20k, but it's just a wild in the dark guess.

 

[boulderjohn]

Edd's rates are also his minimums in terms of number of days.

That is really true of pretty much all scuba courses, including beginning OW. There is a number of days expected for completing the work, and then there is reality. In a really well-designed and well-taught course, the vast majority of students will complete the work in the expected time. The critical factor, though, is completing the skills properly. If you need more time to complete the course, then that extra time is for the benefit of your safety.

If lots of people who are putting in sincere effort are not completing your course in the suggested time, then something is wrong. Either you are accepting people into the class who were not ready for it, the time allotted for the class is unrealistic, the curriculum is poorly designed, or you are not doing a good job instructing.

 

[rjack321]

Exactly. UTD Cave 1 and Cave 2 begins after completing Overhead Protocols. To me that is a better way of breaking down the course because OHP can be done in your local quarry. This is where you will need a lot of remedial work so when you arrive in Mexico then you can commit that to applying what you have already drilled into a cave environment. Actual training days are equal to GUE course its just that you have done a lot of the prep work before you arrive at the destination.

Not everyone prefers this approach.

Doing line work in a hard rock quarry (probably with gloves on) is not really the same as doing line work in a limestone cavern in MX or FL (for instance). I never really thought the days I spent in Cenote Ponderosa doing line work in the ginormous cavern there were a waste at all. Nor were they 'remedial'

While the UTD approach of breaking up course chunks makes sense to a certain degree, it also creates more classes (something that GUE got rid of when took the cavern and intro of olden days and made fundamentals & cave1). And it does create more of a goal oriented progression with stuff like "prep work". Whether you are at home in a quarry or in the basin or cavern at Ponderosa you're still diving. There is a certain amount of intangible value in doing extensive practice and familiarity in the "new to you" limestone basin or cavern environment. Its only a couple of days afterall.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Not everyone prefers this approach.

Doing line work in a hard rock quarry (probably with gloves on) is not really the same as doing line work in a limestone cavern in MX or FL (for instance). I never really thought the days I spent in Cenote Ponderosa doing line work in the ginormous cavern there were a waste at all. Nor were they 'remedial'

While the UTD approach of breaking up course chunks makes sense to a certain degree, it also creates more classes (something that GUE got rid of when took the cavern and intro of olden days and made fundamentals & cave1). And it does create more of a goal oriented progression with stuff like "prep work". Whether you are at home in a quarry or in the basin or cavern at Ponderosa you're still diving. There is a certain amount of intangible value in doing extensive practice and familiarity in the "new to you" limestone basin or cavern environment. Its only a couple of days afterall.

I acknowledge that but I do not know how many practice sessions would be needed for me to get the skills up to the level where a UTD instructor will sign off on it. It may take me three days and it may take me seven! I cant plan a trip to Mexico with such open departures. For folks like me, this breakdown makes sense because we once you pass overhead protocols then completing Cave 1 and Cave 2 in the designated time is more likely.

 

[rjack321]

I acknowledge that but I do not know how many practice sessions would be needed for me to get the skills up to the level where a UTD instructor will sign off on it. It may take me three days and it may take me seven! I cant plan a trip to Mexico with such open departures. For folks like me, this breakdown makes sense because we once you pass overhead protocols then completing Cave 1 and Cave 2 in the designated time is more likely.

There are other paths to this same end...

GUE would say that a fundamentals tech pass is a solid platform to work with and adding a reel is not a big challenge for divers at that level (which seems to be true and accurate from what I've seen)

Similarly its totally reasonable to work hit up some of your local divers (GUE groups are especially good at this) with requests for mentoring "Hey I'm headed down to Edd in 3 months for cavern class. Anyone will to spend an afternoon with me at Gilboa helping work out my fumble fingers on the reel?"

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Here is where I think you should begin...
What gear (harness and wing) do you have or are you prepared to purchase? There are two highly respected choices. Pick one of those two. Don't buy something else because it cheaper or your possible instructor teaches with that gear.
Second - who are the very best to learn from? I would suggest the designers of the gear. Both of them live and work in Mexico. No disrespect to any Flordia instructors. I haven't been there to cave dive and so I cant give advise on who are the best choices. There will certainly be high quality teaching available there too.

No, no, and no. There is little difference in gear. A plate and harness is a plate and harness. A wing? There are wings that cost half as much as others performing just as well if not better. Certain big name sidemount rigs are known to be junk without extensive modifications.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

No, no, and no. There is little difference in gear. A plate and harness is a plate and harness. A wing? There are wings that cost half as much as others performing just as well if not better. Certain big name sidemount rigs are known to be junk without extensive modifications.

I understand. I was trying to avoid naming the gear manufacturer. My wording isn't quite correct but was hoping to get the point across