My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[rjack321]

I'd like to comment on the evaluation Vs training here. During fundamentals classes I am constantly evaluating my students, as this is the only way to help them improve. Good instruction requires evaluation. However I am not evaluating them against a pass/fail boundary, I'm evaluating them against "perfection" (which is obviously impossible). Through that evaluation, I then give feedback and active teaching to improve the students skills.
And finally, there is nothing to say a new OW diver can't pass the class. I have had students with fewer than 10 dives pass the class.

Thanks
John

@tmassey
I think this is what your previous instructors might have been missing. They looked to the padi (TDI etc) standards for the bar you had to clear possibly in part because they either didn't know or were apprehensive to compare your performance against "perfection".

The other issue is that it can be really hard to know how to fix the last 5% of someone's external 'skill' deficiencies. BUt that said, it's even tougher to see into their brains and figure out what their potentially erroneous thought process was. That's where the self-assessment debriefs become critical. My GUE classes (Fundies, T1, C1, C2) were the absolute best I've had at this kind of personal review of "what is wrong and how do we fix it" vs an instructor driven review do X instead of Y..

 

[Doc Harry]

I was not prepared for fundies, but encouraged to take it anyway. It was an extremely motivating and useful class that propelled me into tech and my full cave diving certification. Fundies was one of the most valuable classes that I have ever taken.

However I received a provisional grade and never went back to finish. The degrading and unprofessional behavior and attitudes of the GUE instructors was too much to bear. I enjoy self flagellation - but not that much.

 

[tmassey]

Thank you all for your replies! I'm gonna batch up the responses -- and try to follow my own rule: no arguing!

The whole 'can you learn everything' in X days is definitely an issue. Fundies 1/2 seems a nice split to give you practice time after some feedback. But yeah, most are not scheduled that way. I'd be interested in why, might be travel costs add up.

I think you could grok the team aspect, if you're amenable, in 4 days of intense diving. Four tough days may actually help teach the teamwork, while 2 and 2 might not stress you enough to learn to instinctively act as a team.

There's no question short classes are less profitable than long classes. For the instructor, they require virtually the same prep work before and after, and they bring in half as much money total. No doubt, those kind of overhead issues make it hard to scale things down. Plus you make another good point: some concepts may just plain take longer than 2 days to solidify: you're never going to deliver a baby a month at a time...

Regardless of why, it still made this one big, expensive (in the absolute sense: see the next quote) and scary obstacle, for me...

Great post. The cost of fundies was mentioned several times so I just want to touch upon that and maybe get some clarification. <SNIP>

1000 (class) + 250 airfare + 250 for 5 night hotel + 100 nitrox bill + 150 car rental + 250 for incidentals.

Thank you for putting out some real numbers. My costs this week should be somewhat similar -- I'm expecting maybe 15% higher. I was mainly referring to my perception of the *absolute* cost of a GUE class compared to a PADI class -- 10 years ago. The PADI class is shorter, cheaper per-day, and close enough to home that travel costs are very low, if not zero. (I even said my reasons were *bad* reasons: anyone who looks at only absolute price gets what they deserve... )

If finding good mentors is challenging, consider finding a suitable instructor and then paying them to be a mentor rather than issuing a cert.

I agree. This would have been *ideal*: Bite-sized, no pressure, focused on me and my current needs and not some class set of standards to measure me against. Just private instruction. The obstacle for me: there isn't a GUE instructor within 500 miles where I live... That put a crimp in my efforts to do just that. I actually wrote literally 10 *times* as much in my original draft, and part that got axed was about my attempt to get training from a local UTD instructor. Unfortunately, my experience with him (twice) left me embarrassed, overwhelmed and discouraged. I did not move forward with instruction with him. And he was the only local option, so I didn't have other (convenient and affordable) choices. I made several attempts to get training from various GUE instructors along the way -- and I couldn't even get an e-mail back.

But if you aren't quite as unfortunate as me to live in a GUE desert, yeah, I can really see the value. I can only imagine what even a single full day of decent high-end mentoring would provide, physically, mentally and emotionally. (Assuming you actually get a good mentor, and not just a good evaluator! The human psyche is so fragile...)

I would've loved that. I did all but one of my skills in OW well enough on the first try but had little confidence I could do them every time, under stress. AOW didn't do much by itself for my skills or confidence, but I do feel like I learn something new with each dive. I go back and forth between thinking I'd like to get some more instruction and thinking I should just dive as much as possible.

I guess I didn't understand this about GUE Fundamentals: you can take it right out of OW, but you wouldn't expect to "pass"? Do people take it just to better their diving without any real hope of passing, or repeat it until they do? If you were taking it just to improve, and Fundamentals 1 was available, might it make sense to do that and not follow up with 2? Or arrange a few private lessons with a GUE instructor with the understanding that passing isn't on the table but you'll cover at least some of what would be in the course? Not trying to suggest what you should do, just thinking about my own options.

Thank you for sharing your OW experience. That is a perfect illustration where just because you did them well enough to pass doesn't mean you wouldn't welcome -- and benefit from -- further attention. That is exactly how I've felt. I think you just expressed it much more clearly! I had the same training-or-diving struggle as you, with the fear of "learning on my own wrong" and "wasting a lot of money not getting actual training". Tough place to be.

And sure there are people who take GUE Fundamentals without expecting to pass -- just to gain the training and experience. I'm just not one of those people -- or haven't been until recently! That's why I wish there were a smaller way to introduce yourself to that process. And both you and @RainPilot came up with a great solution: start with a day of mentoring! (Where were you ten years ago?!? )

I'd also suggest post fundies to just hire a different GUE instructor to give you an evaluation and challenge you. This will give you a slightly different take. I did this with the other fundies instructor in my area and it was great. He pushed me just to the point of failure, and it helped me dramatically as I had a new things to work on.

So this makes it unanimous! So for all of you out there paralyzed by taking the plunge, see if you can get in touch with a GUE instructor for a day!

And I *hope* you're right, that I look back and wish I hadn't waited so long. That's why I wrote this long post. I've heard others say that before, but it wasn't until I really dug into *why* I wasn't taking the class that I was able to overcome it, no matter what I thought the value would be. And to combine it with the idea of start with a single day of instruction, well, I just wish I could have done *that* 10 years ago.

I'd like to comment on the evaluation Vs training here. During fundamentals classes I am constantly evaluating my students, as this is the only way to help them improve. Good instruction requires evaluation. However I am not evaluating them against a pass/fail boundary, I'm evaluating them against "perfection" (which is obviously impossible). Through that evaluation, I then give feedback and active teaching to improve the students skills.

Agreed fully. I understand that education must *start* with evaluation (how do you know where to begin?) and at least *end* with evaluation (how do you know you did your job?). The way you put is excellent: evaluating against the standard of perfection, and because we'll never be perfect there's always something to learn -- and teach, if you're good enough. The part that hurts the student is if you measure against a *minimum* standard and *stop* teaching when the student achieves that. ("Teaching to the test." Hate it. The solution is *not* to stop testing -- it's to keep teaching! )

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate the perspectives. And for others paralyzed like me, take everyone else's advice: see if you can get a *day* of instruction!

 

[tmassey]

@tmassey
I think this is what your previous instructors might have been missing. They looked to the padi (TDI etc) standards for the bar you had to clear possibly in part because they either didn't know or were apprehensive to compare your performance against "perfection".

I think so too. (Thinking about this, I think “ideal” is the word I would use.)

The other issue is that it can be really hard to know how to fix the last 5% of someone's external 'skill' deficiencies. BUt that said, it's even tougher to see into their brains and figure out what their potentially erroneous thought process was. That's where the self-assessment debriefs become critical. My GUE classes (Fundies, T1, C1, C2) were the absolute best I've had at this kind of personal review of "what is wrong and how do we fix it" vs an instructor driven review do X instead of Y..

You've gotten me excited! It's a way of looking at solving the problem I had not considered. I will pay close attention to how this is done -- it's a technique I'd like to use in the future when I have an opportunity to try to teach someone something.

I was not prepared for fundies, but encouraged to take it anyway. It was an extremely motivating and useful class that propelled me into tech and my full cave diving certification. Fundies was one of the most valuable classes that I have ever taken.

However I received a provisional grade and never went back to finish. The degrading and unprofessional behavior and attitudes of the GUE instructors was too much to bear. I enjoy self flagellation - but not that much.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing. You are not the only person to express such a thought. It's so hard: some people don't think they've gotten a "proper" GUE course unless they're beaten and abused. For others, it's a reason to never go back. At this point, the die is cast -- I'm scheduled and paid for, so I'm taking the class! My instructor does not seem the type for abuse, either in the conversations I've had or reports I've heard from others. We'll just have to see, won't we?

Again, thank you all for your replies. Your thoughts and suggestions have certainly contributed some valuable points. I really appreciate it. I hope others will be able to benefit from these as well.

 

[Compressor]

Best wishes in your class. Wishing you joy and success.

 

[Imla]

Right... so I tried the whole "yeah.. I'm only in it to learn" approach to Fundies. Didn't work. People aren't wired like that. Acknowledge your expectations to yourself. If your goal is a techpass (and in my not so humble opinion, it should be) then say so!

My personal story with GUE... Fundies: Had been diving with a few that had done fundies. Felt I was up to par with them. Knew I would learn a lot, but knowing myself, I have "test-anxiety", "good-girl-syndrome", "stage-fright" and for some odd reason, when I get tired, I cry... Jiiiz do I hate that. So... by day two, I was so tense, I was ready to cry. By day three, I would have sold my gear to the first offer. Day four... our instructor (True instructor, not evaluator. Super lovely) got sick. I have never been so happy to have someone go sick... I got 4 days to relax. Get a dive to practice. And I got time to GIVE UP on the techpass that I HADNT acknowledged that I wanted. That was a really odd feeling. Basically what happened was that I showed up to day four, not giving a hoot. I was gonna learn how to shoot a buoy. And have fun. We got up and the instructor goes: Ey... THATS what I wanted to see!! FUN! I would have been super happy with a rec. I got a tech. (To this day... maybe with the exception of the dive I borrowed a scooter... That fun-dive is the most expensive dive I have done...)

Acknowledge your expectations to yourself. Only then can you identify and rectify areas you can improve and perfect.

Good Luck on your class.

I. T2C2CCR.... (And proudly passed all classes on first attempt. Which, with all the frights and GGS and a neuro-muscular genetic disorder on top was a lot of work. You can do it!)

 

[MaxE]

Fundies has been an idea I kick around from time to time. This thread and another recent one have renewed that. I’m a ref diver with less than 100 dives. I have no experience in a dry suit or with doubles so imagine I would go the rec route. I live close enough to FL that I can drive there. But I’m now wondering what instructors are the “teachers”. If you don’t want to publicly advise one way or another feel free to PM.

 

[tmassey]

But what about the class? After all this angst, won't there be some sort of Fundies Report? Sure. Why not.

My class is with Meredith Tanguay in High Springs, Florida April 22-25, 2019. I'm actually a fill-in for an open spot, so I signed on fairly last minute. In the end, it's probably better this way -- less time for me to obsess. Or at least compress all that obsession into a shorter time? Maybe.

So, 30 days out I get an e-mail with the pre-classwork to be done. Of course, I only signed up like 35 days out, but nobody got the assignments until 30 days out. Why? 'So it's fresh in your mind.' Sounds reasonable to me.

What does this pre-classwork include? A fair amount of stuff, really. The first couple don't need answers. They need questions. The first one is: three personal objectives for the class. Sure thing: I've had a decade to think about it... I can write those right up (which I did). And it *was* the first question, so I did it first and sent them off.

Except... as I completed the rest of the work, this evolved a little bit. So I've got a second smaller batch of points. But I've learned my lesson: I won't send them in until they're due -- in case they change again! I'll include at least an overview of my answers (erm, questions) here later as well.

The next question asks for more questions, too. After reading the entire classroom presentation -- six separate modules, plus a separate Nitrox module, come up with three questions for each item. I won't bother listing these -- what's the point without the classroom material? -- but I would say half of them are somewhat detail oriented, and the other half open-ended discussion question -- and a fair amount of those are asking for *her* thoughts and reflections on the material. Hey, if she wants to know our personal objectives for learning within her class, I want to know what her personal objectives are for teaching the class!

This is not the first time I've seen this technique used within an educational setting. It is certainly the first time I've seen it used in a SCUBA-education setting. This is a sign of an educator that is trying to be effective and deliver measurable value. How better to make sure that a student receives what they are expecting than by *asking* them? Now we both have a standard to refer to. Of course, it also creates an expectation that you'll deliver those things...

Now it's bookwork time. Of course, in order to develop questions for each module, you actually have read each module. So that's a bunch of reading. Then, there is an optional Nitrox study/refresher, along with a fair number of exercises to complete. Sure, it's optional, but after thousands of dollars, a week long class and travel, you're gonna skimp out *now*?!? Of course not. So Nitrox bookwork it is! This includes a bunch of other gas pressure/volume related calculations as well. So be it.

Finally, there's a bunch of specific supplemental worksheets to complete. These are all gas related: SCR/SAC/RMV/Whatever, gas management and planning, partial pressures, calculating ascent rates. When you're done with them, you then complete an online review, where every question also includes an "I need some assistance with this" option. In other words, you are *not* expected to know all of this stuff without question. You clearly *are* expected to put a good amount of effort into at least making yourself very familiar with this stuff. (Which is good: I subtly suggested to a fellow classmate that if he were to show up with absolutely no clue what any of this stuff was that I would rip off his arm and beat him to death with the wet end. I really don't want to, of course, but I *also* do not want to sit through several hours of remedial Nitrox, either... He assured me he would at least glance at it in advance...)

Finally, with all this out of the way, there's some additional material to review as time allows. There's a folder of Supplemental Reading, which includes a good amount of material related to peripheral items: physical fitness, smoking, etc, as well as write ups on specific topics: SMB's, valves and valve drills, etc. Finally, there's Additional Reading, because the rest of this certainly doesn't provide enough volume ( ), including the classics: Beginning with the End in Mind, and Fundamentals of Better Diving. Just 700 pages or so to peruse... (Let me be clear: neither of these sections are required. But again, in for a penny, in for a pound. Onto the iPad they go. I'm gonna read something sometime: might as well be these.)

I have to say, from a sheer volume of material standpoint, the class at least has weight, if not value...

One thing I completely forgot about: the swim test. Darn it. I *have* swam competitively in the past -- a few sprint triathlons. Not that my *times* were competitive, but that I have done swimming of some distance in a competitive environment. My times were all roughly in the neighborhood of 40 meters a minute, and 500 meters was the shortest. Of course, my last tri was... 7 years ago? I hated swimming then, and I haven't warmed up to it in the interim... But look at it from the other direction: I have to do 275 meters in 14 minutes. That's 20 meters per minute. OK. In other words, this *really* isn't a swimming test. This is more of a move-in-the-water-in-an-organized-fashion-for-14-minutes test. If you don't drown and you don't set off at a blazing pace and burn out in the first five minutes, you *should* be able to complete this test.

At least that's what I'm telling myself, anyway.

The biggest problem is that I've been sick ever since I signed up for this class. I'm on the upswing, but I'm still sick: with the stamina I have right now, I'm good for about 50 meters and then I will sink to the bottom. I'm going to try to get in a pool early next week and make sure. Not that this gives me any time to change anything if I'm wrong...

But really: 275 meters in 14 minutes. More than 2 minutes per 50m. It can't be *that* bad, right? I can backstroke or even sidestroke that fast.

Other than the swim to tune up and my gear to pack (and by "my gear" I mean most of the small dive shop worth of gear in my workshop), there's really nothing else for me to do at this point. Except get overwhelmed by anxiety and suppressed emotion and misplaced priorities (and family obligations and work requirements and...)...

One day at a time.

So far, my impression of the class and the instructor is professionalism. This is not Meredith's first rodeo. She's got the communication and class materials ready to go. Lodging and tank rentals are ready if you need it (she recommends staying with your fellow student for logistical and team-building reasons). I've had a number of e-mails back and forth with her over the last couple weeks, me making sure I'm on the right page and her outlining exactly what she's looking for.

This winter, I had had a somewhat lengthy conversation with her on the phone. This was a pre-class interview -- on both of our parts. Between that experience, the e-mails I've exchanged and the opinions of others who have worked with her in the past, I really do not think she will be the degrading or browbeating type. And she assures me that there will be lots of instruction and then enough evaluation to figure out what's next. Which sounds perfectly reasonable -- even responsible!

So that's where we are right now: I'm all signed up and the book work's done and turned in. Nothing left but the waiting. I leave in two weeks. Hopefully I'll get in the water, but other than that, it's just pack up and go.

 

[lermontov]

I have a background of being a professional mountain guide but im sure you'll see the parallel to diving- about 30 years ago the Standards assoc attempted to quantify all manner of sports and adventure activities including mountaineering - over a season or two I noticed a change in attitudes to the inherent dangers of climbing in a hostile environment. In my early years the learning curve was most definitely a mentor apprentice system- if youre still alive after 10 years of climbing you must be doing something right and your advice worth noting. ie I've been a the pointy end and know what Im doing. Not now, to be an instructor you must know lots of theory and be able to draw risk matrix charts and demonstrate the various pros and cons of certain fabrics and the loft value of sleeping bag down.
we had students coming on our courses that knew no better and they just went from course to course hoping that one day they'll wake up and they'll be awesome and experienced, in fact we told some to not come back until they had done more climbing- they had become course junkies - because they didnt now any better

Im not trying to irritate you at all but I sense a fair bit of frustration in your posts it seems almost like your expecting the instructors to make you into a better diver by imparting some esoteric knowledge or a pill containing all the understanding they have gained over many years of experiences - its not going to happen, because it just takes chronological time and a multitude of varied experiences to gather that all in.

Maybe youve been unlucky, maybe the instructors youve had are not much more informed or experienced than you - Ive seen 'sidemount instructors' teaching others after hardly any sidemount diving themselves - its a joke

The other thing to think about is who are you doing it for? who's endorsement do you want? is the certification some benchmark to measure yourself against.? Perhaps your a high achiever always wanting to excel at everything with an underlying self doubt - I dont know - im a bit like that - getting frustrated with 'average' nothing wrong with striving for excellence - just enjoy your journey

 

[johnkendall]

Fundies has been an idea I kick around from time to time. This thread and another recent one have renewed that. I’m a ref diver with less than 100 dives. I have no experience in a dry suit or with doubles so imagine I would go the rec route. I live close enough to FL that I can drive there. But I’m now wondering what instructors are the “teachers”. If you don’t want to publicly advise one way or another feel free to PM.

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with any of the FL based GUE instructors.

HTH
John