Accidental DECO and mild panic in a non tech certified diver.

[atdotde]

That green shaded area in the dive profile might be a "close to DECO" indicator but someone with more knowledge of subsurface software would need to weigh in on this one.

Edited to add:

The green appears and goes away if I toggle "calculated ceiling" which would support what you said about me potentially being in DECO but again it never happened during the dive. Go figure.

Indeed the green area is your deco ceiling that you are supposed not to cross (at least when turning off the 10ft steps). This is according to the deco model which is Bühlmann with gradient factors 30/70 as indicated by the green numbers on top of your profile. This is quite a conservative setting which is why your five computer did not show a ceiling (it’s probably set to different values). You can change the settings of subsurface in the preferences.

Btw, Subsurface comes (like your sister‘s dive computer) with an extensive manual where all this is explained.

Just some general comments regarding the dive: there is really no excuse for not monitoring dive time and remaining NDL or deco obligation. But on the other hand divers should learn how to handle a few minutes of mandatory stops. In particular with several hundred dives under the belt. It’s not black magic. Finally, I see in your profile that your final ascent from about ten feet to the surface was almost instantly. This i would try to avoid, the last bit of the ascent should really be the slowest. I know divers who would spend three to five minutes on that. You body will be grateful (in terms fatigue etc)

 

[Storker]

Not all CMAS 3* require deco

We're probably veering more than a little off topic here, but:

4.2 A CMAS Three Star Diver is qualified:
[...]
4.2.2 To conduct any sport diving activities including Stage Stop decompression diving

Cite: CMAS Three Star Diver Training Programme - Standard

1.2.1.5 Topic 4: The use of diving tables and dive computers
[...]
1.2.1.5.1.4 How to determine dive profiles which include Stage-stop decompression diving for single and repetitive dives.
1.2.1.5.1.5 How to enact the required Stage-stop decompression.

Cite: CMAS Three Star Diver Training Programme - Syllabus

If "not all" CMAS 3* require deco, I can't see how they are able to fulfil CMAS' requirements for the 3* program.

 

[caruso]

Finally, I see in your profile that your final ascent from about ten feet to the surface was almost instantly. This i would try to avoid, the last bit of the ascent should really be the slowest.

I know! She was in an agitated state and was flying up the ladder- I felt I had no choice but to go after her. She probably ascended even faster than I did.

 

[Edward3c]

We're probably veering more than a little off topic here, but:


Cite: CMAS Three Star Diver Training Programme - Standard


Cite: CMAS Three Star Diver Training Programme - Syllabus

If "not all" CMAS 3* require deco, I can't see how they are able to fulfil CMAS' requirements for the 3* program.

The PADI IDC Guide crossover page is quite clear its CMAS 3*. The UK's HSE also have PADI DM listed as CMAS 3* on page 5 of their "List of Approved Diving Qualifications".

 

[Storker]

The PADI IDC Guide crossover page is quite clear its CMAS 3*. The UK's HSE also have PADI DM listed as CMAS 3* on page 5 of their "List of Approved Diving Qualifications".

Well, both CMAS 3* and PADI Divemaster comply to the ISO standard for "Dive leader" (and I assume so does also BSAC DL). But that doesn't mean that a PADI DM has been taught everything a CMAS 3* has been taught. And a BSAC DL may - for all i know - be something completely different

You have to look at the minimum standards required by the agency. And I have quoted those (with cites) for CMAS.

 

[Diving Dubai]

But that doesn't mean that a PADI DM has been taught everything a CMAS 3* has been taught. And a BSAC DL may - for all i know - be something completely different

I hold both Quals. They are both different, yes with some similarities but with much different focus as to the end game.

But this is all way OT - but happy to debate if the Mods split this off into a new thread

 

[Edward3c]

Well, both CMAS 3* and PADI Divemaster comply to the ISO standard for "Dive leader" (and I assume so does also BSAC DL). But that doesn't mean that a PADI DM has been taught everything a CMAS 3* has been taught. And a BSAC DL may - for all i know - be something completely different

You have to look at the minimum standards required by the agency. And I have quoted those (with cites) for CMAS.

The only way to get, say, PADI; CMAS or BSAC diver qualifications is to take the course. In the UK the SAA is the CMAS body, but their Dive Supervisor only gets a CMAS 3* equivalence. Likewise, to get a PADI or BSAC certification you would need to take the course.

BSAC isn’t part of CMAS (which is an outdated organisation), but has ISO certification as that’s what more governments are insisting on. For us PADI DM is equivalent to BSAC Dive Leader as both have EN 14153-3/ISO 24801-3 certification.

 

[johndiver999]

If you are diving nitrox please do not ever set your computer to air thats just wrong. Second point his sister has and had over 700 dives.

SEVEN HUNDRED DIVES

No one needs to babysit a diver with that many dives who also surfaces with the most air every dive. she probably surfaced with the most air on this dive too..... she just did not understand the deco obligation....would she have died at any point? no . was it a very interesting story and one that will educate people? yes. did the brother need to change anything or do anything different? No.

Basically his sister kind of I wont say panicked but she freaked out over her computer.

Was his sister out of control or a danger to herself or others? No.

was she panicked in the real diver definition? no not by a long shot and not with her 700 dives and just her computer giving her info.

was she freaked out about it? oh yea and thus did her best to get to the surface.

its a learning experience for her and for her brother in what to expect with others..... but suggesting to him to change his computer to air when he is on nitrox is just plain wrong. a mistake. no one should take that advice.

I get the feeling that you are a little too impressed with the sister's dive count. Perhaps she is relaxed underwater, fit and a good swimmer, but if she does not (for whatever reason) understand decompression issues and how to read the computer she is using.. well I think that might be the perfect example of a person who needs babysitting. Going into deco is a big deal, especially if you don't understand it.

You also seem to be overly impressed with her low air consumption rate and ability to surface with a reserve. I'm not particularly impressed by that fact. What you might not be considering is that once she (or any diver goes into deco) they really must have some redundancy available in gas supply if they want to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. Just because she has a good bit of air in the tank left, does not mean it will be there should a significant problem develop- even a bad freeflow.

In reality, she WAS a danger to herself. If she had delayed looking at her computer for 3-4 minutes more, she could have been hit with a good bit of deco time.

I don't want to make a bg deal about the whole situation, but just because someone has a lot of dives in their logbook and a lot of air in their tank, does not always equate to a "SAFE" situation.

As for your confidence that entering air into a computer when using nitrox is terribly wrong, perhaps it has some potential drawbacks, but it does add a certain degree of simplicity for the dive buddy and allows him to estimate the other diver's deco status more accurately.

 

[drk5036]

My sister now has a bumpy itchy rash on the back of her upper thighs. I'm thinking skin bends (more from her rapid ascent which was steeper than the one in my profile). At my urging she called DAN who told her it's probably nothing to worry about.

Hasn't it been more than a day or two since the dive took place? I think if she was going to get skin bends it would have been visible almost instantly...if it came on 24 hours after the fact it's more likely a jellyfish sting or something similar; reaction to the seawater, etc.

 

[caruso]

I get the feeling that you are a little too impressed with the sister's dive count.

I'm impressed at my sister's astounding levels of ignorance given her high dive count.

You also seem to be overly impressed with her low air consumption rate and ability to surface with a reserve. I'm not particularly impressed by that fact.

More like envious.

If she had delayed looking at her computer for 3-4 minutes more, she could have been hit with a good bit of deco time.

I believe she looks at the computer regularly she just doesn't know how to use it properly.

As for your confidence that entering air into a computer when using nitrox is terribly wrong, perhaps it has some potential drawbacks, but it does add a certain degree of simplicity for the dive buddy and allows him to estimate the other diver's deco status more accurately.

i wouldn't do it because I don't dive that conservatively. I use Nitrox for the longer bottom times and shorter surface intervals not for the additional safety which comes from diving the same profile on Nitrox that one would do on air. I can understand why it might be useful in a situation such as the one that is the subject of this thread and should the situation arise again I just might do it.

if it came on 24 hours after the fact it's more likely a jellyfish sting or something similar; reaction to the seawater, etc.

I wonder if it was there earlier but she didn't notice.