Small Backplate

[eelnoraa]

@scrane it is possible that a smaller backplate consumes more steel than a standard or even a long backplate.
Steel can usually be bought in 4/5/6/7/8ft wide by 8/10/12/20ft long. So we'll use a 4x8 sheet of steel for shits and giggles. If a backplate is 1ft by 2ft, then you can get 16 backplates out of the sheet of steel *4 rows of 4*. If however the backplate is only 1ft by 1.8ft if it was a "short backplate" then you still get 16 backplates out of the sheet, but you have almost a foot of steel that you had to buy and scrap so functionally each plate still "consumes" the same amount of material, the smaller ones just have waste
Now a real backplate is something like 11x15" when flat, and is contoured so there is waste in between the plates and blah blah blah, but when you make a short backplate that is a couple of inches shorter, it is not short enough to allow you to fit an extra row of backplates in there to maximize material consumption.

When DSS was in business, his backplates were all essentially the same price *I think like a $10 per size difference or something pretty negligible*, and Halcyon's short backplates are also the same price as the standard length ones, so it's not like there is any egregious price increase if any at all. The demand for them must not be there if the companies that import their plates from overseas are not producing them. There are MOQ's to contend with, and carrying costs of holding inventory so your cash is tied up, and if there was a significant demand for them, someone like a DGX would be importing them with as large as they are. The fact that they aren't, and Halcyon is one of the only manufacturers that has a short backplate would indicate that the demand is simply not there.

One reason is really the volume or throughput. Plate needs heavy machinery and facilities for fabrication. The capital expenditure is more or less fixed, and large compared to operation cost. The more you can produce, the lower the overall cost. The market for regular size plate is so much bigger, making it less expansive to produce.

Same price at Extreme Exposure at $236.25 for either size. The aluminum is cheaper at $215.25.

I think this has been the pricing structure for H plate for a long time. Both size cost the same. Different material cost difference.

 

[eelnoraa]

I just spotted another thread while looking for recommendations on what tank straps to get. Turns out the Halcyon small plate doesn’t have slots for cam straps so I have to use an STA. I personally use a freedom plate and prefer that the tank sits close to my back. I’m wondering if the STA moves the tank significantly away from the plate?

There are different aspects that contribute to how far the tank is from your back. STA is one. Another is the bend angle of the plate. If you use a HOG plate (steep bend) with no STA vs a DiveRite plate (flat) with STA, tank is probably at the similar distant from your back.

Having that said, the difference is really minimal and most likely not noticeably at all unless you measure it.

 

[tbone1004]

@eelnoraa these are all done on CNC water jets, so the throughput doesn't really change. The machines cut at fixed rates if the plate general design is the same whether it's a small or XL plate. What does change in terms of machine cost is skeletonizing plates like the Dive Rite/xDeep, but for what we are talking about where it is the same size plate just scaled down, the smaller ones will go ever so slightly faster *talking minutes for the entire operation, so largely insignificant.
Wings however have a different discussion where each design of wing bladder has to have a different RF welding tool made for it which is why you'll often see wing manufacturers use the same inner bladder in different sized wing covers. Those are VERY expensive to make and incidentally are one of the biggest reasons DSS didn't come back to the market since his were stolen in the move and the cost to remake them is too high to justify

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

@eelnoraa these are all done on CNC water jets, so the throughput doesn't really change. The machines cut at fixed rates if the plate general design is the same whether it's a small or XL plate. What does change in terms of machine cost is skeletonizing plates like the Dive Rite/xDeep, but for what we are talking about where it is the same size plate just scaled down, the smaller ones will go ever so slightly faster *talking minutes for the entire operation, so largely insignificant.
Wings however have a different discussion where each design of wing bladder has to have a different RF welding tool made for it which is why you'll often see wing manufacturers use the same inner bladder in different sized wing covers. Those are VERY expensive to make and incidentally are one of the biggest reasons DSS didn't come back to the market since his were stolen in the move and the cost to remake them is too high to justify

I found out laser cutting .125 stainless was the way to go, super fast razor sharp clean cuts. Water jet is slower and requires a grit in the water to cut harder materials.
Aluminum is better with water jet since it’s a lot softer.
Also sizing doesn’t matter too much. Cutters have software that will arrange the shapes into the most efficient positions to get the most out of a sheet.
Nobody wants to make a small because they sit around too long.

 

[scrane]

One reason is really the volume or throughput. Plate needs heavy machinery and facilities for fabrication. The capital expenditure is more or less fixed, and large compared to operation cost. The more you can produce, the lower the overall cost. The market for regular size plate is so much bigger, making it less expansive to produce.

Yes, but, both sizes will use the same equipment and switching over from one production run to another should be an easy matter. What will have to change? Just the dies? Or a CNC program?
If this is beyond the expertise of an American company I'm sure someone in China can take up the slack and sell small wings at a reasonable price.

 

[tbone1004]

@scrane only the program changes if you are changing sizes for backplates. For the wings you actually have to make a new die which is quite expensive. Plenty of companies in the US have different sized dies, but if you have something like a 30 and 40lb wing that are largely the same dimensions, there is not enough of a difference to warrant the different bladder. No point in carrying the cost of inventory and the die itself. They usually only make them for different shapes and big jumps in sizes.

@Eric Sedletzky laser works too. The software can only ever get so efficient with the sizes though and there is always scrap involved that someone has to pay for

 

[scrane]

@scrane only the program changes if you are changing sizes for backplates. For the wings you actually have to make a new die which is quite expensive. Plenty of companies in the US have different sized dies, but if you have something like a 30 and 40lb wing that are largely the same dimensions, there is not enough of a difference to warrant the different bladder. No point in carrying the cost of inventory and the die itself. They usually only make them for different shapes and big jumps in sizes.

@Eric Sedletzky laser works too. The software can only ever get so efficient with the sizes though and there is always scrap involved that someone has to pay for

Yah, wings are a little more complicated, and none of my comments were meant to pertain to wings.
Back to plates, even though there is more waste with a small wing, the materials cost for a small wing is the same as a larger one.

 

[Jcp2]

There is inventory cost and opportunity cost. Why carry something that is less demand for when you can carry something that has more demand? If it were so easy, then why have most manufacturers that did provide them no longer provide them?

 

[scrane]

There is inventory cost and opportunity cost. Why carry something that is less demand for when you can carry something that has more demand? If it were so easy, then why have most manufacturers that did provide them no longer provide them?

BP/Ws are still relatively new and of limited appeal to the general diving public. If they become more widely used they will undoubtedly generate variations. As the benefits of different sized plates for different sized people become evident, and different sized plates become reasonably priced, the market will grow.

 

[scrane]

Why carry something that is less demand for when you can carry something that has more demand?

You must be referring to Force Fins.