Value of TDI-Extended Range course

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Like @RyanT, I got my XR card as part of my TDI Trimix training.

I feel like the benefit was just to have the experience of diving to 180 on air in a somewhat controlled environment - i.e. with an instructor to help me if I needed it. I wouldn't have bothered to get the card by itself.

I see the intent behind it but based on what we understand about Narcosis today, you can't train someone to manage it neither will repeat experience cause a person to experience less of it. So it a drill in understanding how much impairment you will experience at 180 feet depth? If a person chooses to dive to 180 feet on air (for whatever reason) how will this course help?

I have been under the impression that repeat experience will, well, maybe not cause you to experience less of it, but at least make you better able to operate effectively while experiencing it. It seems, to me, to be directly analogous to how I can drink 6 beers now, and not seem, to the casual observer, drunk at all. But, the first time I drank 6 beers, it was obvious to everyone that I was drunk.

I have been to 190 with 20% helium and been very narked. I have been to 180 on air and not felt very narked at all.

It (being narked) is certainly not a reliable, repeatable thing. It could happen when you are not expecting it at all. It seems to me like a good idea to have some direct, personal experience with it (in a controlled environment, of course). At least, a good idea for anyone that is planning to dive deep. Less important for people who will be doing NDL dives within standard recreational depths.
 
I didn't keep the old standards from that far back to avoid confusion when looking up course standards, but I did check in my log book (I have always used use metric instruments since starting out in the UK with BSAC). The last E. Range training dives I did with a student in excess of 60m (62m) was in the summer of 1998. if I recall correctly the depth limit on E. Range decreased from 218 to 200 to 180ft as the Trimix Diver program was introduced and expanded to the two levels that many are familiar with. I think the years of change were 1999 to 200 and 180 in 2002 . When we first started with TDI there was no trimix in the program and the E. range started out as "Technical Deep' on our original instructor cards, which were actually Brett Gillam's business card with the instructor rating typed on, then laminated, when he certified us as instructors. When I did my "full" trimix course (100m/325ft max cert) in 1997 with IANTD in Canada at least 2 dives on mix had to be deeper than 190 ft.,( Jodrey on a clear head!) which we thought was ironic when we were teaching on air to deeper depths.:)
Thanks! Really interesting.
 
I took the course well before doing Trimix. It was an excellent course and we had a great instructor. There are are quite a few great dive sites in the Red Sea (where I do 90% of my diving) that are in the 45-60m range where Helium is simply not available, as such I dive in this range fairly frequently on air and have found the course to be greatly beneficial.

Like any dive, especially ones when deco stop diving and gas planning are involved, assessing the dive conditions is important. Water temp, current, poor visibility, overhead environment, familiarity with the dive site ... and of course how I'm feeling on that day will all determine if I make the dive. Part of courses like this are to allow you to gain experience and to think for your self when or when not to make the dive. I would apply the same criteria diving mix or even shallower dives with a full wreck penetration for example.

Everyone is going to have their own particular circumstances and reasons for taking a course like this. For me it has been a major part of my development as a diver.

On a side note: Earlier in the thread some questioned the viability of John Chatterton's claim that parts of the ER course have benefit and why he sees value in combining them with the Trimix course. Chatterton was actually one of the very first of the North East Wreck divers in the US to experiment with the "voodoo gas" Trimix in the early 90's and as such, was one of the first in that community to embrace the benefits of diving mix and make it a staple in his deep wreck dives. You could say he was one of the pioneers in mixed gas wreck diving well before diving mix become more mainstream. Now over 25 years on, if he still sees the benefit and value of incorporating aspects of Extended Range deep air diving into the Trimix course... then I'm guessing that coming from a diving legend like Chatterton, there's a lot of credibility and experience behind his statements.
I would take his word for it.

just my 2 cents. YMMV.
 
I found benefit to it. If nothing else it just affirmed that I didn't want to be at 55m without helium in my breathing gas. And with the rising prices of helium, it affirmed my choice to pick up a rebreather and ALWAYS elect to have helium, instead of waffling about whether to make the dive without because of the cost of filling a set of big doubles.

It would be pretty stupid to end up like the Rouse's after that lesson.
 
I found benefit to it. If nothing else it just affirmed that I didn't want to be at 55m without helium in my breathing gas. And with the rising prices of helium, it affirmed my choice to pick up a rebreather and ALWAYS elect to have helium, instead of waffling about whether to make the dive without because of the cost of filling a set of big doubles.

It would be pretty stupid to end up like the Rouse's after that lesson.

The Rouse's chose to dive under extremely adverse conditions. A storm was coming, 8 foot swells, cold water in zero vis, ripping current, a claustrophobic unstable U-boat and their own faulty gear (the mouth piece on one of their deco cylinders was torn). Several divers on that trip chose not to dive that day. Unfortunately the Rouse's exercised poor judgment before they even hit the water by choosing to dive in those conditions... especially on air.

I would hope one would think twice about diving in those circumstances whether on air, OC mix, or a rebreather. I don't think your analogy represents all deep air dives in all conditions and diving environments... there are a LOT of variables between those extremes.

But as always YMMV.
 
from a cost perspective doing ER and the subsequent muscle memory training is a worthwhile step and can be done on air at 40 m (reasonably comfortably) i dont see any substantial benefits of using He and going another 10m to do that
 
2007 TDI Standards had 180 ft max for Extended Range. I believe the 2002 standards were 180 ft also. I'm curious when it changed from air MOD of 218 ft.

I have a copy of the 1997 S&P in my files, still 218 back then.
 
The Rouse's chose to dive under extremely adverse conditions. A storm was coming, 8 foot swells, cold water in zero vis, ripping current, a claustrophobic unstable U-boat and their own faulty gear (the mouth piece on one of their deco cylinders was torn). Several divers on that trip chose not to dive that day. Unfortunately the Rouse's exercised poor judgment before they even hit the water by choosing to dive in those conditions... especially on air.

I would hope one would think twice about diving in those circumstances whether on air, OC mix, or a rebreather. I don't think your analogy represents all deep air dives in all conditions and diving environments... there are a LOT of variables between those extremes.

But as always YMMV.

Absolutely, there were many things that should have kept them from doing that dive. However, what killed them was the inability to maintain reasonable cognitive function at depth because they were narc'd out of their gourds. The accident slope that they headed down because of that was just way too steep. Any of the other factors present are pretty immaterial comparatively.

Had they been of sound mind, they would have been more readily able to deal with the entanglement in the wreck, they would have been able to get to their deco gas without issue, and they would have been able to do their planned decompression, or at least would have been able to attempt that ascent. Now could the swell have drowned them? Sure. Could the current have blown them off? Absolutely. But neither of those were a factor in their inability to deal with the problems presented at depth because they couldn't think straight in the first place.

Could that dive have still ended in tragedy? Of course. Could the dive have still ended successfully with only some poopy exposure protection? Yeah, it very well could have Unfortunately they're all moot points. A circulatory system full of foam was the consequence of being unable to deal with the issues they had. And a significant part of their inability to deal with issues was their inability to think straight because they were suffering from severe nitrogen narcosis. Because helium costs money....
 
Absolutely, there were many things that should have kept them from doing that dive. However, what killed them was the inability to maintain reasonable cognitive function at depth because they were narc'd out of their gourds. The accident slope that they headed down because of that was just way too steep. Any of the other factors present are pretty immaterial comparatively.

Had they been of sound mind, they would have been more readily able to deal with the entanglement in the wreck, they would have been able to get to their deco gas without issue, and they would have been able to do their planned decompression, or at least would have been able to attempt that ascent. Now could the swell have drowned them? Sure. Could the current have blown them off? Absolutely. But neither of those were a factor in their inability to deal with the problems presented at depth because they couldn't think straight in the first place.

Could that dive have still ended in tragedy? Of course. Could the dive have still ended successfully with only some poopy exposure protection? Yeah, it very well could have Unfortunately they're all moot points. A circulatory system full of foam was the consequence of being unable to deal with the issues they had. And a significant part of their inability to deal with issues was their inability to think straight because they were suffering from severe nitrogen narcosis. Because helium costs money....

True John, but my point is that all those variables combined were contributing factors in addition to being narc'd. The narcosis might not have been as severe under different diving conditions. And that is exactly my point, one has to be able to try and see the entire picture prior to making the dive and try to make the best assessment possible ... some of the divers on that trip - even those on mix chose not to make those dives. You can't just say they got killed because they were severally narc'd... that in and of itself does not explain the entire picture. The Rouse's made some very poor judgments because they were obsessed with discovering the identity of that U boat at any cost and it was the last trip of the season... sadly, they allowed this to cloud their judgement before ever hitting the water. At that level most reasonable people would call the dive before allowing themselves to get into such a dicy situation. After all as tech divers a lot of our training is based on accident analysis and mitigation.

Each of us accepts certain risks by virtue of the fact that we are choosing to operate in an "alien" environment and take our gas down with us. Diving deeper and incurring mandatory decompression increases that risk even more, diving in a hard overhead is another risk and diving deep on air is still another. All those factors are a given but at this level you should be able to asses a given situation on any given day and hopefully through many years of experience and training make a sound judgement.

For me personally I think it's crazy to strap on a CCR. I still don't feel comfortable enough with the technology and the margin of error is extremely thin... those things can get you killed at only 6 meters (or you can get yourself killed to be more specific). Does everyone feel that way? of course not... some feel it's an acceptable risk and are perfectly cool embracing the technology, despite some of the fatal accidents that have occurred even at very shallow depths under very benign conditions.

My take on it is to think for yourself and determine what is going to be an acceptable risk for you on any given day and to make a determination based on your experience, training and comfort level. I do generally find that there's sometimes a "group think" mentality that pervades Scubaboard with blanket statements made without any thought given to all the variables and individual circumstances. Whether it's equipment driven or the mindless repetitions of "mantras" perpetuated by certain elements in the tech community... but that's a whole other discussion.

When Trimix is available or I'm conducting a dive in the hypoxic range it's a no-brainer, but I certainly won't blow off a dive to 55m on air if the diving conditions are acceptable to me (for the record I don't feel that diving air because Trimix is too expensive is a good reason).

To sum it up, I think the ER course is an excellent course to take for anyone interested in tech diving and widening their options. It's also a valuable tool to allow you to see each dive in of itself and have a deeper insight into the acceptable (or unacceptable) risks you are willing to take diving deep air in any particular dive environment or circumstance.

and as Forrest Gump would say ... "that's all I have to say about that".

Happy diving

Cheers,
nas
 
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