Legal considerations for the Fire on dive boat Conception in CA

[Wookie]

Depends on what the NTSB finds.

Source of ignition? It could be a battery as some of suggested. If that's the case, whoever made/imported the battery.

Cooking equipment maybe? Whoever made that.

How about the manufacturer of the smoke detectors?

All possibilities.

There aren't multiple LLCs as others have suggested. A quick search on the California SOS shows that TA is a corporation that was formed in '74. Business Search - Business Entities - Business Programs | California Secretary of State

No point in speculating what the plaintiffs want or don't want. It's an extremely personal decision for these family members that could range anywhere from wanting nothing to being out for blood.

It used to be that you could look up who the registered owner of a vessel is. NOAA took that ability away.

 

[bigDave]

Depends on what the NTSB finds.

Source of ignition? It could be a battery as some of suggested. If that's the case, whoever made/imported the battery.

Cooking equipment maybe? Whoever made that.

How about the manufacturer of the smoke detectors?

All possibilities.

Possibilities - yes. The batteries are likely all destroyed, and unlikely to identify a specific battery and manufacturer as the cause. Cooking equipment was not in use, very unlikely. Smoke detectors maybe they worked just fine and the fire blew up too fast. Good luck getting a contingency lawyer interested in those. Lawsuits are about money, not justice.

There aren't multiple LLCs as others have suggested. A quick search on the California SOS shows that TA is a corporation that was formed in '74. Business Search - Business Entities - Business Programs | California Secretary of State

Having one corporation provides liability insulation for the owners. It doesn't mean the corporation or owners can't have LLCs. LLCs can be called anything BTW, so in that case the search function is not so useful unless you can search by owner or address.

No point in speculating what the plaintiffs want or don't want. It's an extremely personal decision for these family members that could range anywhere from wanting nothing to being out for blood.

The Wave Dancer families had a wide range of emotions, but they were steered by their lawyers to accept the financially rational outcome for the entire group. Any lawyers in this case will do the same, for the benefits of both their clients and their law firms.

It is possible that one of the victims has an enormously wealthy family that could fund lawsuits from their own assets. But that would be speculation.

 

[KevinNM]

Take a step back and look at cars. We crash them, the rules change and designers build better cars and the circle keeps going. Every design weakness creates a design improvement. For every 1000 safety features the designers put in the hand of fate is looking for the 1001st that hasn't been considered.

The law of unintended consequences also hits. Airbags were installed and started killing kids and some small adults. The 'solution' was to move the kids to the back seat, where they are out of view. Interestingly enough, about as many kids die of heat injures when forgotten in cars each year as died from airbag injuries.

 

[KevinNM]

What defendants other than the tour operator (Worldwide Diving Adventures) and the boat operator (either Truth Aquatics' LLC or the Conception's LLC). Sue the Coast Guard? Sue the people that built the vessel in 1981? Sue the surviving crew members? Sue the owner - maybe, but I would guarantee that there is an LLC at some level and that is what LLCs are designed for. LLCs are widely used in this country - I have a co-worker who rents out a couple of houses and each house is held by a separate LLC.

According to the lead plaintiffs attorney in the Station Nightclub Fire the biggest chunk of the settlement was paid by a group of companies that could have manufactured the foam that the station night club used to over the walls. They didn't supply it to them. They didn't sell it as acoustic insulation. They didn't claim it was fireproof. It wasn't even certain they made it, as the lawyer offered them a deal if they paid before the lab tests came back. But they made a rational decision to pay a large amount of money to make the threat of a huge payment go away.

 

[ChrisM]

Well one of the reasons I don't do plaintiff work is that I am not creative enough I guess to some up with a list of people to sue however remotely connected, but you can guarantee that this issue is already being evaluated for the very reasons mentioned, the more policies that are implicated, the bigger the pot for settlement. So individual crew members who likely don't have much of a pot to you know what in hopefully avoid the lawsuit scourge. But anyone with a policy is fair game (in the sense of being a target, not in a sense that there is liability).

I am also not aware that boat liability coverage policies are eroding (ie defense fees paid from limits). In the construction and design world, professional liability policies erode with fees but commercial liability do not. Maybe they do here, depends on the policy language

 

[Cert1967]

There aren't multiple LLCs as others have suggested. A quick search on the California SOS shows that TA is a corporation that was formed in '74. Business Search - Business Entities - Business Programs | California Secretary of State

Save you folks some time and add a doc.

Doesn't mean that TAI owns the boat or boats.

Could be multiple ownership entities

Does CA register boats via the DMV? Doesn't seem to be an easy way to check ownership.

CA registration strings for the boats?

*****************
C0726555 TRUTH AQUATICS, INC.

Registration Date: 11/21/1974
Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA
Entity Type: DOMESTIC STOCK
Status: ACTIVE

Agent for Service of Process:
GLEN FRITZLER
301 W CABRILLO BLVD
SANTA BARBARA CA 93101

Entity Address:
301 W CABRILLO BLVD
SANTA BARBARA CA 93101

Entity Mailing Address:
301 W CABRILLO BLVD
SANTA BARBARA CA 93101
****************************************

CA SecState doesn't support searches for LLP

"Currently, information for limited liability partnerships (e.g. law firms, architecture firms, engineering firms, public accountancy firms, and land survey firms), general partnerships, associations, and other entity types are not contained in the Business Search. If you wish to obtain information about these entity types, download, complete, and submit a Business Entities Records - Order Form to request copies of filings for these entity types."

 

[bigDave]

According to the lead plaintiffs attorney in the Station Nightclub Fire the biggest chunk of the settlement was paid by a group of companies that could have manufactured the foam that the station night club used to over the walls. They didn't supply it to them. They didn't sell it as acoustic insulation. They didn't claim it was fireproof. It wasn't even certain they made it, as the lawyer offered them a deal if they paid before the lab tests came back. But they made a rational decision to pay a large amount of money to make the threat of a huge payment go away.

This could go the same way, though in that case there were survivors who witnessed the pyrotechnics ignite the blaze and the foam. According to your Wikipedia link, the largest settlement actually came from the TV station of all things. Anheuser-Busch contributed to the settlement. Note that the tour group (whose pyrotechnics ignited the tragic blaze) settled for the amount of their insurance.

There were substantial illegalities in that case. Perhaps this case will prove similar, though such illegalities do not seem so likely in the case of a marine passenger vessel that is regularly inspected by the USCG.

I am also not aware that boat liability coverage policies are eroding (ie defense fees paid from limits). In the construction and design world, professional liability policies erode with fees but commercial liability do not. Maybe they do here, depends on the policy language

Whether it was eroding or not, that did seem to be the case in the Wave Dancer tragedy. I would not expect an insurance company to fund a defendant's legal defense after the insurance company agrees to settle and pay out the policy limit.

 

[Wookie]

Well one of the reasons I don't do plaintiff work is that I am not creative enough I guess to some up with a list of people to sue however remotely connected, but you can guarantee that this issue is already being evaluated for the very reasons mentioned, the more policies that are implicated, the bigger the pot for settlement. So individual crew members who likely don't have much of a pot to you know what in hopefully avoid the lawsuit scourge. But anyone with a policy is fair game (in the sense of being a target, not in a sense that there is liability).

I am also not aware that boat liability coverage policies are eroding (ie defense fees paid from limits). In the construction and design world, professional liability policies erode with fees but commercial liability do not. Maybe they do here, depends on the policy language

This I can speak to. There are only a few dive boat insurers left in the USA, Vincencia and Buckley, Owl Underwriting (through a number of agencies) maybe one other. Owl, who with their predecessors insured me for 30 years, has a defense limit of a million so that the defense does not erode the liability limit. That way the insurance company can insure a vigorous defense without feeling the need to settle. This is new. For 28 of those 30 years, defense eroded the liability limit.

 

[Wookie]

Does CA register boats via the DMV? Doesn't seem to be an easy way to check ownership.

CA registration strings for the boats

Documented vessels aren’t always state registered. We were not in Texas, we were in Florida. What is important is not who manages Truth Aquatics, but who is the documented owner.

NOAA used to publish the data, now it’s foia.

 

[Diving Dubai]

The law of unintended consequences also hits. Airbags were installed and started killing kids and some small adults. The 'solution' was to move the kids to the back seat, where they are out of view. Interestingly enough, about as many kids die of heat injures when forgotten in cars each year as died from airbag injuries.

There was a case in the UK, where it was intended to make the wearing of life vests compulsory (rather than recommended) on private boats because of a peak of 13 (preventable) drownings one year

The royal yacht club did some research, and agreed that this would indeed be a good idea, however the new law should be extended to make wearing a life vest compulsory whilst in the bath since there had been 21 drownings from people taking a bath in the same time period

The whole idea was quietly dropped...