Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[JohnnyC]

I think this thread shows a clash of two different training philosophies.

On one side you have the “check box” philosophy where students just have to perform a skill, not necessarily well (Though skills are supposed to be “fluid, comfortable, and repeatable.” Students may need remedial training which may be addressed in the course. Or the instructor may place students on their knees as mentioned here. I didn’t see the video so I cannot comment.

On the other side, you have the philosophy of objective standards. There is a student needs remedial training, they either go practice and achieve the proficiency required before starting the intended course. Or they seek proper training to have those required skills. Only once ready, then students are trained with the new material and evaluated. If they cannot perform the skills at the required level, they do not get certification. In this philosophy, certification cards are not participation trophies. Students may need to go practice and then schedule retesting with their instructor in order to earn certification.

We all know that the market overall is dominated by the former philosophy. For recreational diving, I don’t like it, but I begrudgingly accept it. Not everyone lives near dive sites where they can easily go dive before/after work and every weekend (like me). Most are landlocked and while they may choose not to dive in local lakes/rivers/quarries, they instead dive once in a while on vacation. They demand a checkbox course as they will not have time to practice skills to master them and will likely go to a different dive destination on their next vacation. Even if they were going to go back the next year, their instructor may have moved on.

So ultimately, we have a good versus evil battle here. Guess which one I think corresponds to good and to evil.

Seriously, no one answer that.

I'm not sure I agree it's that black and white. I think there's a significant difference in divers who think that "only when it's important," and "it's important all the time." The first are divers who think it's fine for a technical instructor on an advanced course to allow, and indeed promote, breaking trim and neutral buoyancy whole doing skills because it's those are not important to the specific skill. The latter are divers who think that you never do those things unless it's an exception. One group identifies the action as an exception, one group identifies the action as a rule. Some divers only recognize an exception as viable when it's an exception to some other factor. Some see these as standards violations, others do not. And it appears that there are opinions all along the spectrum between the two, and what constitutes a grey area is different for each diver.

Either way, it's clear that there are distinctions on what people consider acceptable behavior from students and instructors.

 

[Dogbowl]

They might have been referring to my post where I wrote that you should never, ever give training specifics on SB. You deal in vague generalities. The unwashed masses who think they know what’s better for you than you and your instructor don’t deserve any more. And it’s not the “negative criticism.” You can’t share a class report just to share your experience without EVERYTHING being picked apart.

Your instructor is crap. Wrong agency. Why didn’t he do X? You’re diving the wrong size tanks. Your drysuit is crap. WTF is that wing? You don’t need ITT. Why are you doing X class in Canada? We TOLD you Florida is the only place with decent tech instructors - never mind that I’m a Great Lakes wreck diver and doing tech with someone who doesn’t dive in my local conditions is is not an option. You’re too old, too fat, and too gimpy to tech dive. You were too nervous at the beginning. You should never have even bothered getting in the water.

Eff that. I’ll share my experiences privately.

I saw that happen to you and all I can say is you’re a stronger woman than me!

 

[rjack321]

I would love to know how a standards waiver is granted. Seems like something that would have to go all the way up through agency legal counsel and their insurer. I dont know how you justify that (to counsel and the insurer)? What does a standards waiver look like? Is it for site or any site with XYZ conditions? If the agency and insurer do grant a waiver, what about the instructors who didnt get one or dont have one? Unless it applies to a given site and covers any instructor.

I waiver in S. FL seems especially problematic to me because there are plenty of alternative sites that you could go to instead. its not like Hydro is the only training location to choose from.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm not sure I agree it's that black and white.

Wasn’t meant to be black and white, other than those are the opposing ends where clumps of people were in proximity to.

With regards to this thread and how things went down, that’s just normal for social media. I don’t care if it is a forum like ScubaBoard or some page on Facebook. Vitriol in discussions is extremely common.

 

[chillyinCanada]

We don't have to be common. ESPECIALLY, on a thread of this nature or should I say, the nature that this thread started out as.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

We don't have to be common. ESPECIALLY, on a thread of this nature or should I say, the nature that this thread started out as.

I have no idea how to change that without negative side effects.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Yes, you should.

I'm assuming that as an instructor, you have some people skills.

You would never treat a potential student, in person, the way the OP was treated here.

May I also assume that you wouldn't bad mouth his previous instructor in the way that was done in this thread, regardless of what you truly think, regardless of what, if anything that you intended to do about the previous instructor.

 

[Marie13]

I sure have made some opinions about video on training dives , I never let a student video if its hand held on any dives , that would just be an accident waiting to happen ...but now......

@abnfrog - What about instructors with camera? That was actually more what I had in mind.

 

[JohnnyC]

@abnfrog - What about instructors with camera? That was actually more what I had in mind.

Many instructors film their students in situations are where it’s safe to do so. Many cave instructors will film students when there are instructing buddy pairs, or they will have an AI or DM or non-participating diver film as well. I have done this several times. These are typically technical courses, where the diver is expected to have an appropriate level of skill prior to the course in question. However, I have seen OW students filmed, although never by the instructor.​

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes, you should.

I'm assuming that as an instructor, you have some people skills.

You would never treat a potential student, in person, the way the OP was treated here.

May I also assume that you wouldn't bad mouth his previous instructor in the way that was done in this thread, regardless of what you truly think, regardless of what, if anything that you intended to do about the previous instructor.

Ah, I was referring to how discussions break down with a lack of civility, not particular comments made by instructors. Yes some things were over the top, even delving into jealousy (hey, if someone does awesome things and becomes famous, they get to cash in, that’s how the world works) but some brought up legitimate concerns regarding standards. That is fair game when there is (was) evidence showing an issue. Again, I can’t speak about the video as I didn’t see it, but regarding the person who brought up possible standards violations, I have the utmost respect for him for his ethics and integrity. There are stories about him that I cannot share as they were told to me in private at DEMA and would cause and absolute kaka storm were I to use them as justification of my opinion.

In my area, I won’t rip on an instructor in a public forum, but I’ve had frank discussions privately. If you’ve seen enough of my posts, you know that I’m genuinely frustrated with the overall industry refusing to raise standards when it becomes easier to teach. It just takes some effort but I strongly believe that the entire industry would benefit. But I digress.