Why give primary instead of alternate regulator?

[KenGordon]

I've never been diving and encountered an OOA cave diver. Surely you know I do other types of diving?

Sorry, I put 2 and Home together and got 5.

 

[Storker]

The problem isn't you though. It's the panicking diver you've never met before who rushes up to you and grabs your reg.

Serious question: who has experienced this? I know it's a popular meme here, but I've yet to experience, and have never, ever met anyone who has told me that they've experienced this.

As long as you have a working reg to donate in case I've made a complete fool of myself (if so, feel free to let me know how stupid I was) or had one of those rather rare OOG emergencies beyond my control, I'm good. I don't care if you donate your primary or your secondary, just let me know which one it'll be before we splash. I can usually guess pretty well from your config, though.

Me, I dive a long hose. Primary donate, necklaced 2nd. For the sole reason that I'm an underwater photog and appreciate having a clean front, no danglies to interfere with my rig when I clip it off to a shoulder D-ring. Some of those I've dived with also dabble in tech diving, so they use a long hose config. Even when diving strictly non-stop with small rec twins. I can really understand that. Other folks I've dived with prefer the standard PADI type config with secondary donate and the 2nd located somewhere in that golden triangle. I don't care, just hand me a working reg if I come over slashing my hand across my throat and I'm good. But if I'm diving with someone whom I'm not certain is aware of primary donate, I make sure to cover that during our pre-dive chat.

Dive and let dive. Just make sure everyone is on the same page. And if you choose to go primary donate, make sure to include an S-drill in your pre-dive routine. It'd be rather embarrassing if your primary reg hose was tangled if you should happen to have to donate gas.

 

[loosenit2]

Training is horribly undervalued.

On this point we absolutely agree, training is undervalued. Perhaps that is the result of agencies selling "training" that is not rigorous or valuable to many. (II can personally point to UW Photography and the Deep Specialty as not being worth my time, wheras NITROX was invaluable)

What it appears we do not agree on is what constitutes training. My assertation is that a formal instructor based program is not necessary for all things; some things are simple enough to be self taught, or taught through exposure, in other words self trained.

I would argue for a methodical instructor based approach complex and dangerous skills sets such as initial scuba, technical diving, and cave diving; however, I would not put a simple configuration change to primary donate in that same category. The theory is easily learned though reading and the physical skills can be practiced and honed without a formal program with minimal risk.

 

[KenGordon]

Serious question: who has experienced this? I know it's a popular meme here, but I've yet to experience, and have never, ever met anyone who has told me that they've experienced this.

During a previous iteration of this theme in 2016 (maybe there should be a specific sub-forum for arguing about AS configurations) I asked the BSAC people who have the data to count it up. In BSAC this primary donate thing is much more contentious that here because it is explicitly banned. I can't teach it, I can't pair a PD diver with anyone below Sports Diver and any PD diver needs to have been formally trained. Lots of people do dive PD within clubs as they will often have done courses outside of BSAC with TDI etc.

From 2006 to 2015 inclusive there were 173 OOG incidents.

21 were fatal
159 involved recreational diving
14 involved technical diving (I used a broad definition for this)
34 involved divers under instruction
96 involved single cylinder divers
45 involved single cylinder + Pony
19 involved twinsets
39 involved Alternative Take of which 9 (23%) failed
47 involved Alternative Donate of which 15 (32%) failed
2 involved Primary Take. Non failed
7 involved Primary Donate of which 2 failed (29%)
81 involved no successful action to provide emergency gas (This category included panic ascents to the surface)

This is counting reported incidents in the UK, BSAC divers abroad and any UK fatality abroad (as they will have a UK inquest). Other than fatalities there will be under reporting but I don't expect that would change the ratios.

People can read what they like into these numbers. For me the most interesting thing is that nearly half failed completely to get gas and 12% died. To quote a chapter header on Dive Planning "What the **** are you doing running out of gas?"

The next thing I notice is that there were only two cases of primary take. That leads me to disbelieve the claims of "I have seen this", "my instructor says it happens all the time etc". Even if the incidents were under-reported tenfold, it would only be happening twice a year in the UK.

 

[Hickdive]

The mechanism of herpesvirus transmission in that scenario is that the OOA diver is so grateful to the donating diver, that they often develop an intimate relationship with them after surfacing.

Dear God! You've not seen any of my buddies. The body hair alone would put you off, and the blokes aren't any better.

 

[Storker]

The mechanism of herpesvirus transmission in that scenario is that the OOA diver is so grateful to the donating diver, that they often develop an intimate relationship with them after surfacing.

 

[Storker]

Even if the incidents were under-reported tenfold, it would only be happening twice a year in the UK

Thank you. You reinforce my point.

 

[MichaelMc]

@KenGordon, In terms of, roughly, 'you really need to be trained by standard for it'.
From prior discussions of donate, I understood BSAC only accepts a few classes as training primary donate. Prominent on the list is Fundies and, from your above, some TDI classes. As whose graduates had to show proficiency in primary donate to graduate, typically long hose. Absent from the list are any claims of 'my OW taught primary donate; though, yeah, it was not required by <agency> so my card does not prove that'.

Yet Padi is now agnostic as to primary or alternate donate. So there are very few classes that guarantee, by standards, that their graduates are trained in alternate donate. On reflection, we only need to look at Air2's to realize that would be the case in practice for a while anyway. [ETDelete: BSAC training alternate donate, as they train alternate take. Which I forgot. Thanks Bob.]

It would seem BSAC should trust few non-BSAC trained divers with alternate donate until they go through training that requires by standards their mastery of alternate donate. Clear evidence of this need is the abysmal reports of dragging or clogged octos, and CFs when people go to retrieve and donate their octo.

Outside of BSAC, shifting from what one's OW instructor happened to teach you to a different system, primary or alternate, is a separate issue. BSAC seems to require by standard training, inconsistently. Yet you may have just meant training with experienced feedback and correction before checking off. Which can be covered in, experienced/trained, mentoring. As we've seen that few classes/cards actually certify either system.

On primary take: From the last time around, I believe the primary take fell more in the 'if you mug me' part of a buddy brief. I've given that brief: "I donate primary, I will give you the reg in my mouth. If you feel compelled to mug me, take that one. The other is on a short hose, for me." Inattentive bystanders tried to jump on it as advocating or having been trained in primary take. Which caused me to have to reexplain it to half the boat slowly in simple words. That if someone takes my, short, alternate it will become a CF, just as it would if someone did alternate take of an Air2. Though grasping at mine will neither dump nor inflate my BC, depending.

I do primary donate as it puts my own alternate right under my chin in case I need it, it seems smoother donation, and the longer donated hose gives the option of more space so we can each still see our environment. Reg exchange was something I learned in OW and have mastered to a smooth, comfortable, repeatable level, as is required for OW certification. Needing to swap to my necklaced alternate does not concern me.

The remote chance of a primary take mugging is low on my list of reasons, but a bonus.

 

[Bob DBF]

The problem isn't you though. It's the panicking diver you've never met before who rushes up to you and grabs your reg.

Serious question: who has experienced this? I know it's a popular meme here, but I've yet to experience, and have never, ever met anyone who has told me that they've experienced this.

Not that it is any indication of anything, but I have been mugged twice for my reg, other than the initial supprise, which was significant since I thought I had good spatial awareness, it wasn't that big a deal. Both times I was solo but in the area of other divers. Both times they came from above and behind. The first was before the widespread use of alternate seconds and SPG's, so there was no other reg to grab. After the initial shock, we settled down and buddy breathed to the surface. The second was a decade and a half later, from the angle the diver was coming from the primary second is the only one visible, so that would be the one to take. I just grabbed my alternate and we surfaced.

I have had a few other necessary air shares, however they have been orchestrated much better, as the issue was unfolding in front of me.

If buddy diving is actually taught and practiced, there would be no reason for a diver to to look anywhere but his buddy to solve an OOA problem. Now if the buddy team gets separated and does not use the lost buddy procedure, then it could lead to OOA and a mugging or a panicked bolt to the surface. My bet, with today's training, is a panicked bolt to the surface.

I don't think having your primary grabbed is even close to a regular occourance, especially if you donate a reg when a diver comes looking for air, but it has happened. Believing it can't happen is naïve, however I wouldn't put it in my top 100 issues to worry about, you have a larger chance of your mouthpiece falling off, and that's probably closest to a reg mugging anyway.

So, outside of BSAC, there are very few classes that guarantee, by standards, that their graduates are trained in alternate donate.

I was just corrected the other day, BSAC is trained to alternate take, not donate. As a procedure it makes more sense, since the donor does not have to be aware of the problem for the air share to work.




Bob

 

[foob]

Because it's faster.