Mike1967
Contributor
In what, single BM?
AN/DP for a Sidemount Diver from a non-Sidemount Instructor
- Thread starter MrBlenny
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I'm an AN/DP Instructor who dives BM only, and I've had a few SM students. My (reluctant) opinion is that the approach that the OP is asking about is doable, but that the student is not going to get the same value that they would if the AN/DP instructor was fully versed and had a lot of experience in SM configuration.
If you are going to do this, go in eyes open and have a good conversation with the instructor beforehand. You may need to temper your expectations about the outcomes. In the case of the OP, a primary focus of getting the decompression theory and planning nailed down tight with a secondary goal of creating a "personal improvement plan" to focus in on other areas during their future cave courses, work-up and practice dives, etc. might be appropriate value for their investment (time, money & effort).
What I learned was that the decompression & gas theory, the planning, etc. are all going to be the same. So that was "easy" to accommodate.
It is the in-water techniques where things get more difficult given the intimate lack of familiarity with SM protocols and configurations, and I was especially concerned about the failure management techniques. Taking these students on forced me to go and spend some time with my buddies who dive a lot of SM and get fully briefed. This included getting video so that I could get feedback. I was also quite surprised at the differences in opinion between my SM diving friends & associates. I have reluctantly concluded that I need to take a side-mount course despite having no expectations of ever diving side-mount in the foreseeable future.
Ultimately, my students seemed pretty happy with the course and what they learned (but the program ran 19 dives over the summer & early fall, I'm not on a time-line for these courses, and I approach this a bit as an apprenticeship rather than "the standard says we can combine these courses, crack off 6 dives & be done" so I tend to prefer students who are less focused on tight time-lines), and they have mutually developed "personal improvement plans" to take away (and I got great feedback as well about optimizing and increasing the value of the course).
So:
1) In a perfect world you'll be able to get an AN/DP instructor who knows and regularly dives SM
2) In an imperfect world, talk to the instructor and see if they can accommodate you and whether what they can deliver will meet your needs & expectations.
As certification does not imply expertise, I believe that it is okay to come out of these courses having demonstrated proficiency with the skills (academic & in-water), but still having a plan that includes areas to work on during work-up and practice dives, additional reading to deepen subject matter knowledge, or even follow-up courses/training. It's like coming out of the class and slowly working up from self/buddy-team planned & executed planned decompression dives with 10 minute deco stops to planned decompression dives with 30 or 40 minutes of decompression stops.
If you are going to do this, go in eyes open and have a good conversation with the instructor beforehand. You may need to temper your expectations about the outcomes. In the case of the OP, a primary focus of getting the decompression theory and planning nailed down tight with a secondary goal of creating a "personal improvement plan" to focus in on other areas during their future cave courses, work-up and practice dives, etc. might be appropriate value for their investment (time, money & effort).
What I learned was that the decompression & gas theory, the planning, etc. are all going to be the same. So that was "easy" to accommodate.
It is the in-water techniques where things get more difficult given the intimate lack of familiarity with SM protocols and configurations, and I was especially concerned about the failure management techniques. Taking these students on forced me to go and spend some time with my buddies who dive a lot of SM and get fully briefed. This included getting video so that I could get feedback. I was also quite surprised at the differences in opinion between my SM diving friends & associates. I have reluctantly concluded that I need to take a side-mount course despite having no expectations of ever diving side-mount in the foreseeable future.
Ultimately, my students seemed pretty happy with the course and what they learned (but the program ran 19 dives over the summer & early fall, I'm not on a time-line for these courses, and I approach this a bit as an apprenticeship rather than "the standard says we can combine these courses, crack off 6 dives & be done" so I tend to prefer students who are less focused on tight time-lines), and they have mutually developed "personal improvement plans" to take away (and I got great feedback as well about optimizing and increasing the value of the course).
So:
1) In a perfect world you'll be able to get an AN/DP instructor who knows and regularly dives SM
2) In an imperfect world, talk to the instructor and see if they can accommodate you and whether what they can deliver will meet your needs & expectations.
As certification does not imply expertise, I believe that it is okay to come out of these courses having demonstrated proficiency with the skills (academic & in-water), but still having a plan that includes areas to work on during work-up and practice dives, additional reading to deepen subject matter knowledge, or even follow-up courses/training. It's like coming out of the class and slowly working up from self/buddy-team planned & executed planned decompression dives with 10 minute deco stops to planned decompression dives with 30 or 40 minutes of decompression stops.
OP
MrBlenny
Contributor
Based on all of your thoughts, I am opting to return to Protec in Spring 2021 for AN/DP. As many of you have pointed out, expecting an equivalent level of training from an instructor who doesn't dive sidemount is unreasonable on my part, and I really ought to get in a good number of practice dives before advancing to the next level--I was letting my enthusiasm get the best of me 
KentB
Contributor
I took ANDP in sidemount from a local instructor who teaches/dives in backmount and really dont feel I missed anything
he said he only dives sidemount in caves and tropics so he did have experience in sidemount so Im not sure I really answered your question.
that said before I was even done ANDP and extended range I saw the benefit to big backmount twins over some little 80s
the bottom times with 80s are just not really worth the effort hahaha
he said he only dives sidemount in caves and tropics so he did have experience in sidemount so Im not sure I really answered your question.
that said before I was even done ANDP and extended range I saw the benefit to big backmount twins over some little 80s
the bottom times with 80s are just not really worth the effort hahaha
J-Vo
Contributor
Protec is a great op, and will get you dialed in sidemount. That said for PNW diving I would want HP100s/130s depending on the dive, and Protec will not be teaching you to carry heavy steals.
My suggestion, is get dialed in sidemount by Protec and then find a sidemount instructor/mentor in PNW to get you dialed with heavy tanks. The X-Deep will do both with no problem. Once you know how to use both and how to rig and carry deco bottles, it does not matter what config your instructor is using.
My Trimix instructor was backmount, that just meant I had to dial all the rigging in myself. Sidemounting.com was a big help for this and I suggest going through their videos.
My suggestion, is get dialed in sidemount by Protec and then find a sidemount instructor/mentor in PNW to get you dialed with heavy tanks. The X-Deep will do both with no problem. Once you know how to use both and how to rig and carry deco bottles, it does not matter what config your instructor is using.
My Trimix instructor was backmount, that just meant I had to dial all the rigging in myself. Sidemounting.com was a big help for this and I suggest going through their videos.
OP
MrBlenny
Contributor
Thanks, I just placed an order for HP117's with my local shop, so I will have some steels to play with. There aren't too many SM instructors up here that I've found, but I'm getting to know a couple of tec divers who use the Stealth, so hopefully they will be willing to let me tag along on a few dives... My goal is to get 75+ dives in SM before returning to ProTec in 2021 for AN/DP. It would be nice to find some other SM divers as well, but my local shop doesn't do helium, so not too many advanced folks stopping in.
where are you in WA @MrBlenny ?
AN/DP with no helium in Washington is <ugh> maybe ok at the most friendly sites. But you will struggle to find deep air buddies and being in SM won't make it any easier. You can upgrade your AN/DP at protec to include a modest amount of helium though and I would highly recommend that. That way you can at least dive a reasonable gas at home and won't alienate potential buddies - even if you have to drive a ways to get the gas.
OP
MrBlenny
Contributor
I'm down near Vancouver, so almost to Oregon. And yes, without helium I'm stuck at the shallow end of deep diving
Even with Extended Range being a viable class, I don't relish the notion of being that narced at 180fsw. Provided I can get my hands on some helium, what constituted 'a modest amount' in your mind? I've considered eventually moving to a rebreather, but I'm not even remotely prepared for that leap right now.
J-Vo
Contributor
I know from experience there are a fair many sidemount divers just over the border in BC. I would assume they come with instructors. It may be an easier trip than ProTec.
You could leave a set of tanks at Hoodsport & Dive for fills and get them another weekend. Or Eight in Des Moines or Under watersports on Aurora Ave (north seattle) depending on what your plans happen to be. The reality is that once you start deco diving you need a lot more tanks - in part for different mixes, in part because you aren't going to get fills while you wait. So dropping off and picking up multiple sets of tanks is the new reality.
You could also convince your local shop to blend it for you - perhaps if you buy the supply bottle. Or what many of us do is end up with a compressor at home as it saves a ton of driving around in traffic.
I think TDI heliox allows up to 20% helium but I might be mistaken on that. Honestly its pretty skimpy on a wreck like the PB4Y at 148ft in 8ft vis (Lake Washington). You will struggle to find competent buddies willing to dive with someone on air even at 150ft. Extended range? Yea that isn't happening here anymore. I.e. nobody wants to have to watch over you like a hawk worried you're going to do something dumb and wack us both.
You could also convince your local shop to blend it for you - perhaps if you buy the supply bottle. Or what many of us do is end up with a compressor at home as it saves a ton of driving around in traffic.
I think TDI heliox allows up to 20% helium but I might be mistaken on that. Honestly its pretty skimpy on a wreck like the PB4Y at 148ft in 8ft vis (Lake Washington). You will struggle to find competent buddies willing to dive with someone on air even at 150ft. Extended range? Yea that isn't happening here anymore. I.e. nobody wants to have to watch over you like a hawk worried you're going to do something dumb and wack us both.
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