Taking an open water student below 60 ft?

[TMHeimer]

When teaching, an instructor must abide by standards. Outside of teaching, it isn't any agencies business. However, for liability reasons, I won't dive with anyone past their certification limits with the exception of old timers who have been at it for decades.

I probably would do the same regarding cert. "limits". Am curious-- do you mean liability reasons because you are an instructor and have a "higher standard of care",etc. or talking in general. What are the legal responsibilities of an OW diver, a Rescue Diver and others, should their buddy have an accident or die? Guess I've asked that on past threads--probably about the same answers as for a pro--varies according to what you did to help the buddy and on how good his lawyer is?

 

[NAM001]

It sounds like your wife was trained by clowns. Now I started out as a PADI instructor 4 years ago, and I've seen older PADI instructor manuals, and I never saw anything say that 40 feet was the max depth for open water diver. Scuba diver, yes.

I cringe at the thought of taking people to 61 feet (within standards) for the deep dive in an AOW course. My opinion (worth just as much as you paid for it) is that doing so is a huge disservice. While the performance requirements are non existent (looking at colors fading - which many instructors skip and comparing depth values on dive computers - which also many instructors skip are not skills). But hopefully people learn that going to 100 feet isn't scary, and that they learn something (though I won't hold my breath) about narcosis. I certainly will not hold my breath that the instructor will teach about gas density and why going beyond 100 feet on air exceeds the recommended gas density by Dr. Simon Mitchell (which caused me to stop teaching diving beyond 100 feet until I become a heliotrox instructor).

Now my memory may be off, so any current PADI instructors please correct me, but it is within standards to mix open water and other specialties, just not a deep dive (i.e., you need to maintain standards). I think doing so is a disservice as students don't learn anything while the instructor is busy with the students taking con ed courses. I'm personally against max ratios as students spend a lot of time waiting their turn. I teach in cold water, so managing students's comfort as well as gas supply are concerns. I just want to ensure that my students improve significantly with the courses I teach. While many instructors hold this view, not all of them do.

I agree with you on this. there is a lot that is supposed to happen in these classes in the way of experience. It is not uncommon to hear about this wither. I always have to think about this when i get an insta-buddy some where. A shallow dive it is not much of a big deal but I have had too many less than optimal dives with newbies. Lost tanks,,,, running low on air,, because they never experienced gas consumption rate at deeper depths. A lot of things that should be learned in a thorough class. If you think it was a clown class it is worse it was a one on one class for 500$ plus 500 for local housing since we had to travel a couple hundred miles to take the class. After a lot of time in local lakes she built up her skills to what they should have been coming out of OW and has the skills and the confidence of what an AOW should be. I dont worry about her at all in regards to can she make it back or not. I know that there are things that take time but if a flooded mask panics you at 25 ft ,,,,, then the answer is not to flood it at 5 ft and say you are good to go.

 

[JackD342]

Too many points to make to track down individual posts and quote them, but here goes, all from a PADI POV...

Limits on non-training dives: Common sense, best practice, past experience, and demands of insurance policies apply here, and not training agencies, with one notable exception. From the PADI Member Code of Practice:
Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisory
restrictions as displayed on restricted PADI
certification cards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and
Junior Diver

Standards for completion of a skill:
During confined and open water dives, mastery is defined
as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance
requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable
manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level.

Multi-tasking courses on dives:
As long as ALL standards are followed, nothing at all wrong with it. I have done student OW skills on the same dives as Drysuit, Peak Performance Buoyancy, and Refreshers, to name the ones that first come to mind.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Too many points to make to track down individual posts and quote them, but here goes, all from a PADI POV...

Limits on non-training dives: Common sense, best practice, past experience, and demands of insurance policies apply here, and not training agencies, with one notable exception. From the PADI Member Code of Practice:
Respect and reinforce the depth and supervisory
restrictions as displayed on restricted PADI
certification cards, such as PADI Scuba Diver and
Junior Diver

Standards for completion of a skill:
During confined and open water dives, mastery is defined
as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance
requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable
manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level.

Multi-tasking courses on dives:
As long as ALL standards are followed, nothing at all wrong with it. I have done student OW skills on the same dives as Drysuit, Peak Performance Buoyancy, and Refreshers, to name the ones that first come to mind.

You do realize that mastery is sometimes interpreted as student did not drown completing skill? Wasn’t comfortable. Wasn’t fluid. Wasn’t repeated.

Yes, max ratios are allowed if conditions allow for it. Most accidents during training that occur in my area is 1:4, half of max ratios. I haven’t had the pleasure in teaching in locations where 1:4 is safe (warm, great viz, no currents - none which apply here, but mild currents is achievable).

Lastly, if you think PADI’s member code of practice is anything more than lip service.... well, not going to try to address that one.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I probably would do the same regarding cert. "limits". Am curious-- do you mean liability reasons because you are an instructor and have a "higher standard of care",etc. or talking in general. What are the legal responsibilities of an OW diver, a Rescue Diver and others, should their buddy have an accident or die? Guess I've asked that on past threads--probably about the same answers as for a pro--varies according to what you did to help the buddy and on how good his lawyer is?

for being both a normoxic trimix diver and being an instructor. Though I have joked with a former OW/AOW student of mine who has gone the GUE route and earned T1 certification that if we dived with a third person where something went south, I’d likely be held liable than him though he has been certified to a higher skill level than me.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As has been stated several times in this thread, 40 ft is the max training limit for OW dive 1 and 2, 60 ft for dives 3 and 4.
Not sure why it has to be said over and over.

Unless someone replies to your comments and it shows up in my email or I specifically click on show ignored posts, I don’t see anything you and a few others write.

 

[clownfishsydney]

Back in 1988 when I did my PADI course, my first four dives were all to 20 metres or more (that is, 66 feet or deeper).

 

[tursiops]

Unless someone replies to your comments and it shows up in my email or I specifically click on show ignored posts, I don’t see anything you and a few others write.

Yes, I know that. Your loss.

 

[Bigbella]

I hadn't seen a certification agency's website in years; and just happened to see PADI's this morning. Truly, it is "put another dollar in," and, should your boat sink while aboard, you'll be paying for a wreck dive.

A cursory glance revealed eighty classes, ranging from some practicality (first aid, closed circuit, etc), to absolute absurdity (the Adventure Diver; the scooter; drift diving (yeah, those are challenges); and "Dive Against Debris" trash collection specialty immediately comes to mind; though I do love some of that hardboiled, Lloyd Bridges knife-between-the-teeth copy:

"Join the best of the best in recreational scuba diving and live the dive life as a PADI Master Scuba Diver. The Master Scuba Diver rating places you in an elite group of respected divers who have earned this rating through both significant experience and scuba training. Fewer than two percent of divers ever achieve this rating. When you flash your Master Scuba Diver card, people know that you’ve spent time underwater in a variety of environments and had your share of dive adventures . . ."

"There’s a long list of scuba adventures you can take part in during this program. Complete three Adventure Dives and you earn the Adventure Diver certification." Oh, WTF?

 

[tursiops]

I hadn't seen a certification agency's website in years; and just happened to see PADI's this morning. Truly, it is "put another dollar in," and, should your boat sink while aboard, you'll be paying for a wreck dive.

A cursory glance revealed eighty classes, ranging from some practicality (first aid, closed circuit, etc), to absolute absurdity (the Adventure Diver; the scooter; drift diving (yeah, those are challenges); and "Dive Against Debris" trash collection specialty immediately comes to mind; though I do love some of that hardboiled, Lloyd Bridges knife-between-the-teeth copy:

"Join the best of the best in recreational scuba diving and live the dive life as a PADI Master Scuba Diver. The Master Scuba Diver rating places you in an elite group of respected divers who have earned this rating through both significant experience and scuba training. Fewer than two percent of divers ever achieve this rating. When you flash your Master Scuba Diver card, people know that you’ve spent time underwater in a variety of environments and had your share of dive adventures . . ."

"There’s a long list of scuba adventures you can take part in during this program. Complete three Adventure Dives and you earn the Adventure Diver certification." Oh, WTF?

Do you hate everything? Or just agencies? Or just PADI?