FB posting - standards violations - how many can you pick out?

[Landau]

I saw all single tanks. Jacket BCs. The deco reg hose is configured very odd around the hose retainer in one photo. Cross body configuration of deco bottle rather than on one side.

From what I can find online this doesn't violate TDI standards. Here's what I find in the TDI standards for Heliotrox available on the TDI website

"1. Primary cylinder(s); cylinder volume appropriate for planned dive and
student gas consumption
2. Decompression mix cylinder(s)
3. Cylinder volume appropriate for the planned dive and student gas
consumption with submersible pressure gauge
...
7. Primary and alternate 2nd stage required on all primary cylinders"

So a single tank of appropriate volume and any type of alternate appear to meet the standard. The depth and instructor to student ratio (Assuming only one instructor) appear to be clear violations though.

"A maximum of 4 students per instructor"

"not exceeding a maximum depth of 45 metres / 150 feet"

 

[Marie13]

From what I can find online this doesn't violate TDI standards. Here's what I find in the TDI standards for Heliotrox available on the TDI website

"1. Primary cylinder(s); cylinder volume appropriate for planned dive and
student gas consumption
2. Decompression mix cylinder(s)
3. Cylinder volume appropriate for the planned dive and student gas
consumption with submersible pressure gauge
...
7. Primary and alternate 2nd stage required on all primary cylinders"

So a single tank of appropriate volume and any type of alternate appear to meet the standard. The depth and instructor to student ratio (Assuming only one instructor) appear to be clear violations though.

"A maximum of 4 students per instructor"

"not exceeding a maximum depth of 45 metres / 150 feet"

This instructor is NAUI, not TDI.

I know some old timers who do large single tank and deco bottle for deco dives around 130-140ft. You think no redundancy is a good idea for 180ft?

To me, the kit issues become a bigger thing with this deep of a dive.

 

[Storker]

Not being dead often reinforces normalization of deviance.

Most of the times you violate standards you don't become dead. Because standards are made to give you a good probability for not ending up dead. Like, better than a 9:10 probability. Hopefully better than a 99:100 probability for not ending up dead.

Do something that gives you a 9:10 probability of not ending up dead five times in a row, and you still have better than a 1:2 probability of not ending up dead. Heck, do something that gives you a 99:100 probability of not ending up dead 68 times and you still have better than a 1:2 probability of not ending up dead. Would you voluntarily roll the dice several times if you had a 1:100 probability of ending up dead each time you rolled the dice? I wouldn't.

That's why we have standards based on reasons that people have died while diving. And because people usually don't die when they violate standards we see a lot of normalization of deviance.

 

[Wookie]

This instructor is NAUI, not TDI.

I know some old timers who do large single tank and deco bottle for deco dives around 130-140ft. You think no redundancy is a good idea for 180ft?

To me, the kit issues become a bigger thing with this deep of a dive.

Gulf Coast Spearos tend to pump their LP cylinders to 3500-4000 PSI, they especially like LP130s so they can carry 170 cubic feet or so. They hang a bottle of O2 at 20 feet to "Clean up" after their bounce to 200-250 feet. The fact that this guy got them in a pony, with some helium makes them at least 50% safer than they would normally dive on their own.

I give him high marks.

 

[Landau]

This instructor is NAUI, not TDI.

I can't find the NAUI standards other than depth online so can't determine if the equipment meets NAUI standards or not

You think no redundancy is a good idea for 180ft?

I certainly do - but that is a separate question from whether the setup violates agency standards. It doesn't appear to violates TDIs Heliotrox standards, NAUI I don't know.

Me I'm sticking to 40m and above in any case. I'm not drawn to the deep wrecks. But if I were, I wouldn't take that instructor's course.

 

[Wookie]

Most of the times you violate standards you don't become dead. Because standards are made to give you a good probability for not ending up dead. Like, better than a 9:10 probability. Hopefully better than a 99:100 probability for not ending up dead.

Do something that gives you a 9:10 probability of not ending up dead five times in a row, and you still have better than a 1:2 probability of not ending up dead. Heck, do something that gives you a 99:100 probability of not ending up dead 68 times and you still have better than a 1:2 probability of not ending up dead. Would you voluntarily roll the dice several times if you had a 1:100 probability of ending up dead each time you rolled the dice? I wouldn't.

That's why we have standards based on reasons that people have died while diving. And because people usually don't die when they violate standards we see a lot of normalization of deviance.

Standards are meant to keep the instructor and his training agency out of trouble while instructing, and to keep their insurance policy in effect during the course of the training. They have nothing to do with dying while diving, nor diving in real life. Standards ONLY apply to training.

 

[jgttrey]

If they were on standard NAUI helitrox mix, which I believe is 26/17, their PO2 at depth would have been >1.7.

 

[Storker]

Standards ONLY apply to training.

I might have meant practice, not standards. Bear with me, neither am I a "pro" nor have I English as my first language.

Last time I checked, current diving practice taught (particularly when it comes to deco and cave diving), is to a large extent based on how people have gone and gotten themself killed by doing something different than what is currently taught.

 

[MichaelMc]

Does this kind of diving make me uncomfortable? Absolutely. However I think mandating full technical gear for :introductory tech " classes such as this isn't a great idea either

The Instructor seems to be NAUI.
Helitrox is the third tech class, after Intro and Deco. Not sure how it would still be introductory tech.

Naui Technical Equipment Configuration (NTEC) for Open Circuit Technical Dive Training (2010) says:
"Twin primary cylinders connected by a dual-port manifold with an isolation valve are required for all training that will involve actual or simulated decompression stops. For training that does not involve decompression, a single primary cylinder with an “H” or a “Y” valve is acceptable."
The 2017 standards list that for Into, but leaves off spelling it out for Deco and Helitrox, beyond the standards intro referencing NTEC, which may have seen some update to accommodate sidemount.
Also, NTEC: "A wing type buoyancy compensator is required" And rigid plate is highly recommended.
That gear looks a wild mess. Beyond being not a wing and doubles.

4:1 ratio if deco, 6:1 if no deco, unless an assistant, then 6:1 under ideal conditions. Not clear if one of the 5 was an assistant.
Depth limit is 150'.

 

[Wookie]

I might have meant practice, not standards. Bear with me, neither am I a "pro" nor have I English as my first language.

Last time I checked, current diving practice taught (particularly when it comes to deco and cave diving), is to a large extent based on how people have gone and gotten themself killed by doing something different than what is currently taught.

Yes, but your English is likely far better than mine, and I've only been using it lifetime many days.

Safe Diving Practices often gets thrown out the window as soon as someone learns that there are no scuba police. Do we know how many folks have died at a PO2 of 1.7? I have no idea. I dive using rules safe enough for me, and I likely "What if" more than anyone. Are they safe enough for you? I don't know. I herd dive to 300 feet. I don't have an assigned "buddy", but if the rest of the herd leaves, I'm sure not staying. I don't dive deeper than 300 as I think I'm too old for that. I set my computer GFs to a stupid conservative number because I have been bent commercial diving a lot, and if I'm being paid to be bent, that's one thing, but being bent for fun is no fun.

Cave diving is too dangerous for me.