The stupid burns...just saying.
The thing that dive shops don't compete with online sales they discount to low or zero margin, then they blame the consumer and online businesses...the problem is in the mirror
Bloody dive shops...
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The thing that dive shops don't compete with online sales they discount to low or zero margin, then they blame the consumer and online businesses...the problem is in the mirror
Actually I am about to buy something that my LDS has cheaper than I can buy it online, only because it has been sitting behind the counter for a few years! I frequent 4 different local dive shops because I like how the different shops do certain things and because of convenience. I have one shop that has the same guy that has been servicing my regulator for almost 30 years but because they are part of a small chain of dive shops they have very strict policies on tanks and air fills that were set by upper management I do not take my tanks to them. All of the shops use banked Nitrox and pre mix systems but 3 of them still require regular O2 cleaning of the tanks to use Nitrox, should not be necessary for mixes below 40% if no high concentration of oxygen is actually reaching the tank, so I use the 1 shop that will fill my tanks without O2 cleaning for all of my local fills and tank services. I use 2 other shops that are closer to me for most of my dive trips out of convenience, I like the crews on all 3 of the shops that have their own boats, the other shop contracts out with multiple boats, but they do dive different sites and I can only usually dive on Wednesday or Thursday of most weeks and the type of diving that I want to do is not always what is on their schedule. I will purchase equipment locally if I can get it at the same price or slightly more than online, I will not pay 2-3 times the price of an online item and there are certain things that I can only find online! All 4 shops treat me as a valued customer and I try to spend money at and attend the events that they have on a regular basis. They also understand that I have referred a lot of customers to all 4 shops over the many years that I have been diving, if someone asks me where they can find a piece of gear or service locally I have a really good idea of where to find it and get the best deal. They all host manufacturer seminars where they have a presentation of a new piece of gear and a dive to try it out the next day for only the cost of the dive or if a shore dive at no cost! I try to attend as many of these as I can because even if I am probably not going to buy something I can give my honest recommendation to someone who is looking to buy it. Yes I have bought gear that I had no intention of ever buying because of these try and dive events and I have tried out gear that I would never purchase but have recommended to others that have purchased those items.
Wingy
Contributor
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I think I've worked out your problems - a) you're on the Gold Coast and b) you're German DNA expects efficiency but the Aussie DNA expects "oh well **** happens"
Seriously @clownfishsydney is right - diving is dying in Aus is dying and the bricks and mortar shop is where people go to get certified, do a course (especially holiday makers in you're locale) buy an entire set of shiny new kit...which appears on gumtree a few months later. But year after year, I see mostly the same staff, the same customers and all but one shop sadly seems to change ownership every few years. I'm down to two easily accessible shops and one of those has been in the same hands for the last quarter of a century that I know of (shoutout to Callum and the team at Dolphin) the other used to have three branches but is down to one. Unless the guy who appears to be the owner and loves Uepi as much as I do I've noticed the younger sales staff change a bit but that may just be due to random timing when I drop in.
I do use Adreno a lot, but only for "bits n pieces" and I've been using the same online guy in VIC for prescription masks for the last decade.
What Adreno can't do even though I've rang them and they've been awesomely helpful in letting me know exactly what time shipping leaves and if they can get me say a torch before I Fly out on a dive trip in 4 days is...let me try things on before I buy them. The other shop I frequent with Uepi guy went way over and above when I suddenly realized I needed a new Wetsuit before heading on a month trip to Africa even though there was a bunch of public holidays and weekends. I'd done similar a few years before a couple of days before doing a LOB when I bought the last BCD. After trying on the Scubapro I thought I wanted I hated it even though it was in my size, the young girl serving me bought in every wetsuit in my size they had. Nothing else fitted so she bought in a aqualung a size too big and said she would track down every dwarf sized Aqualung in Aus for me. They rang 3 days later and she had managed to get a size 4 and a size 6 from two different states flown across so I left Aus looking somewhat respectable. I appreciated that as much as I appreciate honesty. We tried every single BPW they stocked or could get hold of easily in their store and compared dimensions on manufacturers websites to find whatever combination my hip bones were an issue. So custom or ordering a then new option on a fingers crossed basis from Singapore were the only options and realistically neither were going to happen before I left on another trip. There was no pressure sales this will be fine stuff. They know I've been going there a decade why would they lose my very infrequent business by trying to palm gear off that a new diver might think is just a part of uncomfortable scuba gear?
The industry's small. I think every shop knows I'm a solo traveler and not interested in trips nor am I interested in most courses so I've never had any issues there.
Air fills? I have my own tanks and lately tbh a friend who's a techie with great gas blending skills with compressor and the typical engineering mindset has begrudgingly been doing my air fills.
My only complaint with dive shops is Years ago I got called a "Dive Traitor" because until this year I rarely ever did any diving here and didn't rent tanks so I contributed nothing to the local industry. Sorry for preferring PNG to rockingham wreck trail.
2 - Nup
3 - Nup
4 - Nup
I think I've worked out your problems - a) you're on the Gold Coast and b) you're German DNA expects efficiency but the Aussie DNA expects "oh well **** happens"
Seriously @clownfishsydney is right - diving is dying in Aus is dying and the bricks and mortar shop is where people go to get certified, do a course (especially holiday makers in you're locale) buy an entire set of shiny new kit...which appears on gumtree a few months later. But year after year, I see mostly the same staff, the same customers and all but one shop sadly seems to change ownership every few years. I'm down to two easily accessible shops and one of those has been in the same hands for the last quarter of a century that I know of (shoutout to Callum and the team at Dolphin) the other used to have three branches but is down to one. Unless the guy who appears to be the owner and loves Uepi as much as I do I've noticed the younger sales staff change a bit but that may just be due to random timing when I drop in.
I do use Adreno a lot, but only for "bits n pieces" and I've been using the same online guy in VIC for prescription masks for the last decade.
What Adreno can't do even though I've rang them and they've been awesomely helpful in letting me know exactly what time shipping leaves and if they can get me say a torch before I Fly out on a dive trip in 4 days is...let me try things on before I buy them. The other shop I frequent with Uepi guy went way over and above when I suddenly realized I needed a new Wetsuit before heading on a month trip to Africa even though there was a bunch of public holidays and weekends. I'd done similar a few years before a couple of days before doing a LOB when I bought the last BCD. After trying on the Scubapro I thought I wanted I hated it even though it was in my size, the young girl serving me bought in every wetsuit in my size they had. Nothing else fitted so she bought in a aqualung a size too big and said she would track down every dwarf sized Aqualung in Aus for me. They rang 3 days later and she had managed to get a size 4 and a size 6 from two different states flown across so I left Aus looking somewhat respectable. I appreciated that as much as I appreciate honesty. We tried every single BPW they stocked or could get hold of easily in their store and compared dimensions on manufacturers websites to find whatever combination my hip bones were an issue. So custom or ordering a then new option on a fingers crossed basis from Singapore were the only options and realistically neither were going to happen before I left on another trip. There was no pressure sales this will be fine stuff. They know I've been going there a decade why would they lose my very infrequent business by trying to palm gear off that a new diver might think is just a part of uncomfortable scuba gear?
The industry's small. I think every shop knows I'm a solo traveler and not interested in trips nor am I interested in most courses so I've never had any issues there.
Air fills? I have my own tanks and lately tbh a friend who's a techie with great gas blending skills with compressor and the typical engineering mindset has begrudgingly been doing my air fills.
My only complaint with dive shops is Years ago I got called a "Dive Traitor" because until this year I rarely ever did any diving here and didn't rent tanks so I contributed nothing to the local industry. Sorry for preferring PNG to rockingham wreck trail.
Shops should charge more for their classes, and explain what their costs are. As an independent instructor, when I teach OW, my air costs are about $300 for 2 students, and I don't use a pool. Pools in my area (eastside of Seattle) are about $160 an hour.
Potential students should know approximately how much their instructor is making an hour. Some won't care, others will say "okay, paying more for a course is fair."
Potential students should know approximately how much their instructor is making an hour. Some won't care, others will say "okay, paying more for a course is fair."
I'm really surprised to hear the air costs are so high. How many fills is that?
A 10-fill air card is $82.50 with tax, so $8.25/fill. I provide minimum 2 confined water sessions where I expect that I and my students will go through 2 cylinders on each day, coming to 2 cylinders / student x 2 days x 3 people x $8.25/cylinder = $99. I have 4 days of OW dives with two required, and one optional third dive each day (OW 4 dives, dry suit 2 dives, dive planning 2 dives). So 3 cylinders / person x 4 days x 3 people x $8.25/cylinder = $297. So actually, almost $400 ($396).
Now I do plan on getting my own air compressor before I move to Greece so I get good at maintaining it (my dive op will have 2 of the same compressors). But those are $20K each.
I charge $600 per student for this course. Let's say training materials/certification for the three courses is $100 (probably a little high with SDI, but let's keep numbers simple). We are up to $500 in cost. Then there are the maintenance/distributed purchase cost of mostly Deep 6 gear. Let's treat that as $50 per course. For instructor dues and insurance ($1K per year), an additional $100. For two students, I have $550 left over for my time. I probably will be putting in 6 hours per day for confined water. More than 4 hours for open water (as I have setup/teardown time as well for doing timed swim rates that you normally cover in AOW/nav courses). So 12 hours for CW, 16 hours for OW. 4 hours for academics. 32 hours of my time. I'm probably undercalculating costs.
Do people think that an hour rate for an instructor who has worked on developing his craft for teaching NB/T and addressing the inadequacy of agency dive planning materials of $17 too much? Minimum wage in Washington state is $13.50.
I provide all equipment, except for exposure protection. That is an additional expense. I have an agreement with a LDS that has in my opinion the best rental dry suits as they sell them while still in good condition. I'm grateful to be able to work with them.
I certainly don't, and I would love to see the kind of transparency in pricing you're talking about across the board. As I mentioned in another thread, I got lured into a $200 OW course that turned out to be closer to $1,000 all-in. I'm sure my instructors weren't getting rich off that, but I would much rather have had it all spelled out up front. I'm in a good financial position and can't speak for anyone else, but I would've gladly paid more for an instructor who went above and beyond the agency minimums and especially one who offered extra fun dives to practice at the end. I was able to sort of arrange that on my own by going to Catalina and paying for a couple of guided dives, which happened to be one-on-one with an experienced and patient instructor with whom I would've loved to have taken the course in the first place. But that was my third try after the first two guided dives I tried to set up fell through. If I knew someone like you around here I'd definitely recommend them to anyone asking me how to get into diving. Unfortunately, when I look around online, I have no idea what separates one course from another. They don't even advertise what makes them special, let alone account for every dollar spent.
@Esprise Me,
One of my wife's friends started OW with me almost 2 years ago. She missed the weekend of OW dives (this is when I taught for a shop). She just returned from Belize where she started over. She spent the entire course on her knees. Learned nothing. She understood the difference. Here's the thing. I shouldn't be anything special. What I teach is the norm as there are resources to learn to teach at a competent level. Why agencies don't frustrates me (I know it is due to not interrupting revenue streams - imagine they required remedial training before resuming teaching? Many instructors would quit - lose of their annual dues, and others would have a delay of teaching - fewer certification). She was quite angry when after the course, they had some boat dives, and the instructor basically ditched everyone. I explained that's the industry. People by in large want cheap. So this is what they get and it can be dangerous. Now while my wife's friend is willing to pay more, I don't think most of the people who scuba dive do. I see all too often "where's the cheapest place to dive/take classes/become an instructor?" The above is the result of that.
When I open up my dive op, I will explain costs of everything, including the taxes I paid the previous year. It will be on my website, as well as printed on the wall in large font.
Agencies are often camera phobic. While it is true that in the past there have been some deaths due to instructors being distracted by their cameras during training, I think that mask mounted cameras (like the Paralenz) are a real asset to teaching, for the sake of visual feedback (like I had when I took GUE fundies). If a student signs a release for the video to be used for advertising/marketing purposes, great.
I want to eventually publish such videos of all my sessions. Two versions: one edited to get the gist/highlights. One unedited and super long. It would verify everything I'm doing and also help other instructors learn. Though I can imagine, few will go through 32 hours of my open water course. But they may watch a few hours....
Most instructors are not good at marketing. Same is true of shops. That's one advantage I will have over other shops on the same island. But I will be promoting diving on my island as well as Greece in general so that everyone wins.
One of my wife's friends started OW with me almost 2 years ago. She missed the weekend of OW dives (this is when I taught for a shop). She just returned from Belize where she started over. She spent the entire course on her knees. Learned nothing. She understood the difference. Here's the thing. I shouldn't be anything special. What I teach is the norm as there are resources to learn to teach at a competent level. Why agencies don't frustrates me (I know it is due to not interrupting revenue streams - imagine they required remedial training before resuming teaching? Many instructors would quit - lose of their annual dues, and others would have a delay of teaching - fewer certification). She was quite angry when after the course, they had some boat dives, and the instructor basically ditched everyone. I explained that's the industry. People by in large want cheap. So this is what they get and it can be dangerous. Now while my wife's friend is willing to pay more, I don't think most of the people who scuba dive do. I see all too often "where's the cheapest place to dive/take classes/become an instructor?" The above is the result of that.
When I open up my dive op, I will explain costs of everything, including the taxes I paid the previous year. It will be on my website, as well as printed on the wall in large font.
Agencies are often camera phobic. While it is true that in the past there have been some deaths due to instructors being distracted by their cameras during training, I think that mask mounted cameras (like the Paralenz) are a real asset to teaching, for the sake of visual feedback (like I had when I took GUE fundies). If a student signs a release for the video to be used for advertising/marketing purposes, great.
I want to eventually publish such videos of all my sessions. Two versions: one edited to get the gist/highlights. One unedited and super long. It would verify everything I'm doing and also help other instructors learn. Though I can imagine, few will go through 32 hours of my open water course. But they may watch a few hours....
Most instructors are not good at marketing. Same is true of shops. That's one advantage I will have over other shops on the same island. But I will be promoting diving on my island as well as Greece in general so that everyone wins.
I think this is really key. Most products and services, from laundry detergent to tax filing assistance, are advertised either as "we're cheaper than our competitors!" or "we're better than our competitors-- don't cheap out!" You're probably right that at least some segment of the population is always going to be looking for the cheapest option, regardless of quality. But at least some of us would be willing to pay more if someone explained why it was worth it. You can't assume that a more expensive product or service is necessarily better than the cheaper alternative; it often isn't. But you can tell your prospective customers, "Most dive shops only provide X hours of in-water instruction. For Y% (or just "most"?) new divers, this isn't enough. We offer Z hours..." Or, "Most dive instructors teach students to perform skills on their knees. This is for their benefit, so they can handle up to X students, but it doesn't adequately prepare you for real diving. We cap class sizes at Y students so we can give you the individualized attention to teach these skills in neutral bouyancy..."
I didn't use my closest local dive shop for OW, but I took Rescue there. While in the pool, I saw another instructor from the shop teaching an OW course; the students were in neutral bouyancy, but they make no mention of this on their website! It's just more expensive than most of the other dive shops, for no reason that a non-diver might be able to glean from reviewing the various websites. Two of my friends got certified at yet another dive shop. Even though this place offers among the lowest prices I've seen, they included a free fun dive on the boat at the end, which my friends didn't know about in advance. I wish I'd had that! You just don't know unless they tell you, and they don't tell you.
All dive shop/op owners, and independent instructors should take business courses. So easy today with web training.
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