No knee skills for DM

[mmerriman]

I would think a good instructor would go beyond the most basic requirements of any certification. My Rescue cert also include the stress test on the bottom as well as the drop gear at 9 meters and retrieve from the surface. Calm, Control, and Confident. I feel like all these things made me more prepared for the crazy sh*t that can go awry under water. I am grateful for the extra measures my instructor went to to train me properly.

and right there your instructor violated standards.....

 

[mmerriman]

PADI but I think my instructor was just a very conscientious teacher.
I was wearing a lavacore. It was only 9 meters

and you're lucky you didn't have a pressure related injury....

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

and you're lucky you didn't have a pressure related injury....

The rig gets left on the bottom, you exhale as you ascend, breathe deep on the surface, and descend to retrieve. No risk of DCI or even an upset tummy.

 

[MichaelMc]

The fact I was pretty useless at golf had nothing to do with my equipment, nor instruction, nor even ability, it was simply because I couldn't be bothered to apply what I'd been taught (and mastered during the lessons) on the golf course.

In terms of not applying what they were taught and did in class. In class they may have been put in a BC and trimmed out in it, and even assisted with that some. But after class they go to a boat and rent a (different) BC at the dock. They get asked how much lead, or the op guesses, and that lead is put in the integrated waist dump pockets. If they ask if some shouldn't go higher they learn the rental BC has no trim pockets, or they let lead fall out so the op doesn't like using them, or only with big weights, of which they have only a few choices. So they dive like a sea horse. And repeat at the next boat, which leaves diving in trim far in the distant past.

And the notion of them diving the BC by fin skulling to keep level is not anything they experienced in class, when they dove a rig whose weight was distributed to put them in trim. And sculling to keep level takes constant effort, which is tiring and not something they signed up for on vacation.

I haven't rented BCs recently, but my experience around others and at boats suggests this is very common. Their experience and understanding of what went into diving in trim may not be strong enough to cause them to insist on a BC and pockets that they can distribute weights in so they are in trim. So they aren't. If they got taught it, the notion of trim was a nice one, but not worth fighting the dive op outfitting divers for. Nor is it clear they would know all the options of how to attach lead, nor brought add on pockets or bungee with them for that. So sea horse.

(I flew with my BP/W, spare pockets, and trim lead.)

 

[TMHeimer]

(Mod edit)
--It's probably not the end of the world to still teach on the knees. At least not for a good % of students.
We are in the tiny minority here, though I do agree that NB is a better idea.
--Students (& new divers) must take responsibility to continue practicing skills -- which amounts to also continuing to dive regularly.
As I have suggested, these 2 things are very related, as well as students having some "water" skills (ie. being very comfortable in water) before starting OW course.

 

[Diving Dubai]

In terms of not applying what they were taught and did in class. In class they may have been put in a BC and trimmed out in it, and even assisted with that some. But after class they go to a boat and rent a (different) BC at the dock. They get asked how much lead, or the op guesses, and that lead is put in the integrated waist dump pockets. If they ask if some shouldn't go higher they learn the rental BC has no trim pockets, or they let lead fall out so the op doesn't like using them, or only with big weights, of which they have only a few choices. So they dive like a sea horse. And repeat at the next boat, which leaves diving in trim far in the distant past.

And the notion of them diving the BC by fin skulling to keep level is not anything they experienced in class, when they dove a rig whose weight was distributed to put them in trim. And sculling to keep level takes constant effort, which is tiring and not something they signed up for on vacation.

I haven't rented BCs recently, but my experience around others and at boats suggests this is very common. Their experience and understanding of what went into diving in trim may not be strong enough to cause them to insist on a BC and pockets that they can distribute weights in so they are in trim. So they aren't. If they got taught it, the notion of trim was a nice one, but not worth fighting the dive op outfitting divers for. Nor is it clear they would know all the options of how to attach lead, nor brought add on pockets or bungee with them for that. So sea horse.

(I flew with my BP/W, spare pockets, and trim lead.)

A couple of points here. The first is dispelling the myth, that the equipment, (BP/W, or BCD with trim pockets) is crucial to goo trim. It is not. Trim is a function of body positioning, HOWEVER a buoyancy compensater that enables you to distribute weighting to assist in making it easier

When teaching in my jacket I routinely dive overweight, having enough to hand out if students become buoyant (say positive tank combine with a trigger for the fight or flight reflex) and enough to ensure if I dump I can control or restrain a uncontrolled ascent from a student. I can also (and have) lashed 2 AL 80's in addition to my back gas, to a jacket, to make a tech dive. it wasn't' pretty but I could still perform it without compromising the dive.

Being overweight doesn't prevent me from holding trim, nor from good buoyancy as a stop (although it does take concentration to control the bubble) but that is a factor of experience.

I will certainly concede that divers have an addiction to weight, the majority see it as a comfort blanket and pile it on (others strive to get to the absolute minimum even though it isn't required - I was that person)

My good friend who works a live-aboard sees this regularly, she sees divers overweight but they've convinced themselves they need it. You take it off them, they fret underwater, trigger teh flight or flight, become buoyant and think they've proved a point.

His solution is some "placebo" weights, she's mocked them up from fiberglass and slides them on to the divers weight belt replacing lead. the diver doesn't' notice and performs the dive without incident. She continues this over the course of the week and helps them with their trim, until they're sorted. Only then does she fess up.

Now I was that diver. During my OW course and for the following 10 days of diving , I was continually corking. I was given all sorts of (correct ) advice and help by my instructor, but as a new diver I knew better and turned to lead. I was a mess. if we stopped to look at anything I would have to keep moving. I got myself out of this rut, by reading and practicing and learning from my peers.

Not all divers want to go that way, and they refuse to be given advice. They know "what works" and are not prepared to accept they need less weight. They get to see pretty fish and that's all that matters.

A bit like me and my golf swing. I got around the course, who cares if it was a 99 or a 85?

 

[Diving Dubai]

It's probably not the end of the world to still teach on the knees. At least not for a good % of students

No it's a bad thing to teach on the knees. By that I mean to only teach on the knees. I prefer not to, but if a student is having issues, we break the skill down. Sort out the mechanics of the skill first, and then when that's mastered, complete the skill NB

Trying to get the student to learn a skill NB can be frustrating for them - given they're task loading.

Bite size chunks, always bite size chunks

 

[MichaelMc]

A couple of points here. The first is dispelling the myth, that the equipment, (BP/W, or BCD with trim pockets) is crucial to goo trim. It is not. Trim is a function of body positioning, HOWEVER a buoyancy compensater that enables you to distribute weighting to assist in making it easier

Mentioning my BP/W may have created a distraction. Pick your BC, as long as it allows you to distribute weight as needed for trim, I'm fine about your BC for your rec diving. I leave as an exercise for the diver doing that distribution with a BC with no trim pockets and all sewn together with padding that prevents adding pockets except by the tank.

My point was that dive ops generally seem adequately focused on getting divers properly weighted.
They do not seem focused, or even equipped, at getting that weight properly distributed for trim.
So their divers with the proper amount of lead mostly dive like sea horses.

Granted weight distribution on a diver that just walked up is a step harder that mere correct weighting.
But renting them a BC that provides no options on how weight is distributed suggests the op does not care or long ago gave up. Leaving the diver that was at least shown proper trim in training now in a world where that is no longer realizable, so they give it up as well.

My point on training was that they may have been dove in trim during class, in a BC with weight distribution options. But they were not well enough instructed in it to carry over to the dive environment they would face. Ops handing them weights and a new to them BC that may not give any effective weight distribution/trim options.

(As I said, I bring my own BC which has many options on weight distribution. And my own trim weights.)

 

[Diving Dubai]

My point on training was that they may have been dove in trim during class. But they were not well enough instructed in it to carry over to the dive environment they would face. Ops handing them weights and a new to them BC that may not give much trim options.

It certain can be more challenging if you're always in rented kit, often not the ideal fit. But I have proved this with students that I can get them into trim. Kinda like me and the back kick where I needed an instructor to physically move my fins on the dock, so I could feel teh movement, because I just wasn't getting it (engineer in me over thinking).

I get frustrated when people point to kit (clearly not you ) as an answer to a skills issue. Sure kit can refine and assist, but the basics are down to the individual.

I remember when I though a mask with a purge valve was an answer to my problems, rather than actually sorting out my mask flood or clear skill.

All the lessons I teach have a base on my own experience. I'll happily admit that I spent money on gear hoping it would solve a skills issue, a bit like the golfer who thinks a different club will solve his swing - it doesn't but lets not burst the bubble of the infomercial

 

[The Chairman]

Of course when teaching inexperienced divers it's maybe better to start in the knee down position,

No, there's really no excuse to ever make your students kneel.