No knee skills for DM

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes, good buoyancy can be taught easily to (some?) novices. A matter of working the LPI well. Not rocket science. I suppose all or some DSD students could do skills NB if asked to. I would guess some could not, if they weren't as comfortable in water beforehand as these DSDs appear to be.

Students have no idea about NB or on the knees prior to their course. If you teach them to be NB, they will assume that is the norm (hence when I shared a pool with an IDC Staff Instructor working with DMCs who were all on their knees, my students thought they were remedial OW students). If on the knees, then they'll think on the knees is the norm. Wherever you set the bar (within reason of course), students will generally accept it and work towards it.

We don't know what work was done with the DSD participants prior to going into the water. There's a lot of work that can be done on dry land to make an easier transition into the water.

Irrelevant side note: I don't think the instructor was at all times close enough to grab each student should any one of them have bolted. That's the old "DSD ratio standards" thing.

Well, given that the two largest agencies allow for rations of 1:4, I'm not seeing that as much of an issue here from assuming that level of risk (which is higher than what I would choose). If students are comfortable and relaxed (the frequency of breaths and amount of exhale is a good indicator), then it comes down to risk management by the instructor. Even though my agency limits Try Scubas to 1:2 (which I think is the right call), in some cases, I would limit it to 1:1 (children, older folks, initially nervous people - that would be addressed before going under).

 

[TMHeimer]

Students have no idea about NB or on the knees prior to their course. If you teach them to be NB, they will assume that is the norm (hence when I shared a pool with an IDC Staff Instructor working with DMCs who were all on their knees, my students thought they were remedial OW students). If on the knees, then they'll think on the knees is the norm. Wherever you set the bar (within reason of course), students will generally accept it and work towards it.

We don't know what work was done with the DSD participants prior to going into the water. There's a lot of work that can be done on dry land to make an easier transition into the water.



Well, given that the two largest agencies allow for rations of 1:4, I'm not seeing that as much of an issue here from assuming that level of risk (which is higher than what I would choose). If students are comfortable and relaxed (the frequency of breaths and amount of exhale is a good indicator), then it comes down to risk management by the instructor. Even though my agency limits Try Scubas to 1:2 (which I think is the right call), in some cases, I would limit it to 1:1 (children, older folks, initially nervous people - that would be addressed before going under).

I agree with you. Especially like your idea of 1:2 at most, and 1:1 even better. I never taught DSD, but would assume that even 1:2 at times would mean the instructor would at some point be out of "touching" distance with one of the 2.

Interesting that the IDCS had them on knees.
In a follow up to the quote I cited from Dive Training, I do wonder what % of instructors today teach NB from the get go and what % still on knees. It seems that when this topic comes up on SB almost all favour NB, but I wonder how many on SB that still do knees just don't reply.
At some point, if say 95% of instructors advise NB, you'd think the agencies would make that the required standard. I guess we'll see.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree with you. Especially like your idea of 1:2 at most, and 1:1 even better. I never taught DSD, but would assume that even 1:2 at times would mean the instructor would at some point be out of "touching" distance with one of the 2.

Interesting that the IDCS had them on knees.
In a follow up to the quote I cited from Dive Training, I do wonder what % of instructors today teach NB from the get go and what % still on knees. It seems that when this topic comes up on SB almost all favour NB, but I wonder how many on SB that still do knees just don't reply.
At some point, if say 95% of instructors advise NB, you'd think the agencies would make that the required standard. I guess we'll see.

It isn't my idea for a 1:2 ratio for Try Scuba. It is mandatory per my agency. Now I'm not familiar with all agencies' standards for taking people for a non-certification dive experience, just PADI, SSI, and SDI. I just think SDI (and others) have it right. Dropping 1:1 should be pretty straightforward.

I'd expect a small percentage of instructors teach fully NB. The rest would say they start on the knees but move to NB later. They'd probably all state unequivocally (possibly belligerently) that their students are "all fine" or "do great" by the end of the course. Yes, I would have said the same thing when I started out. But the whole Dunning-Kruger. I've never heard of an instructor who places students on their knees reweighing their students as they move to NB, though I'm sure some exist (just isn't common). You simply have to overweight your students to get them to stay on their knees and that makes depth control just harder. Full stop.

I'm pretty sure I'll be repeating myself in future threads, as I've already stated this a number of time on SB and FB. But the agencies in general have ignored a number of recommendations from DAN, including improving buoyancy training and weighting. In my area, a lot of people learn to dive in wetsuits, which to me is pure torture in the cold Puget Sound. Pretty much none of them even bother with weight checks. Get them in the water fast, have them do their skills, and get them out 20-25 minutes later. The sad part is, with a little bit of work upfront, instructors could have a fairly accurate weight for their students after the first confined water session.

 

[decompression]

Sorry--commentary (of course!)
Yes, good buoyancy can be taught easily to (some?) novices. A matter of working the LPI well. Not rocket science. I suppose all or some DSD students could do skills NB if asked to. I would guess some could not, if they weren't as comfortable in water beforehand as these DSDs appear to be.

Irrelevant side note: I don't think the instructor was at all times close enough to grab each student should any one of them have bolted. That's the old "DSD ratio standards" thing.

Watching the video and the position of the instructor, “ bolting” is usually enhanced by being on the bottom and pushing off a solid object directly up (think pool bottom, student on knees), I’m sure you’ve seen it many times. Here, we have students that are horizontal and off the bottom, if a “bolt” happens it will involve a stroke of the fins (towards the instructor) and will be considerably slower with no hard bottom. Just an observation.

 

[TMHeimer]

G

Watching the video and the position of the instructor, “ bolting” is usually enhanced by being on the bottom and pushing off a solid object directly up (think pool bottom, student on knees), I’m sure you’ve seen it many times. Here, we have students that are horizontal and off the bottom, if a “bolt” happens it will involve a stroke of the fins (towards the instructor) and will be considerably slower with no hard bottom. Just an observation.

Good point. Didn't think of that.

 

[TMHeimer]

It isn't my idea for a 1:2 ratio for Try Scuba. It is mandatory per my agency. Now I'm not familiar with all agencies' standards for taking people for a non-certification dive experience, just PADI, SSI, and SDI. I just think SDI (and others) have it right. Dropping 1:1 should be pretty straightforward.

I'd expect a small percentage of instructors teach fully NB. The rest would say they start on the knees but move to NB later. They'd probably all state unequivocally (possibly belligerently) that their students are "all fine" or "do great" by the end of the course. Yes, I would have said the same thing when I started out. But the whole Dunning-Kruger. I've never heard of an instructor who places students on their knees reweighing their students as they move to NB, though I'm sure some exist (just isn't common). You simply have to overweight your students to get them to stay on their knees and that makes depth control just harder. Full stop.

I'm pretty sure I'll be repeating myself in future threads, as I've already stated this a number of time on SB and FB. But the agencies in general have ignored a number of recommendations from DAN, including improving buoyancy training and weighting. In my area, a lot of people learn to dive in wetsuits, which to me is pure torture in the cold Puget Sound. Pretty much none of them even bother with weight checks. Get them in the water fast, have them do their skills, and get them out 20-25 minutes later. The sad part is, with a little bit of work upfront, instructors could have a fairly accurate weight for their students after the first confined water session.

All makes sense. Similar situation here with the checkout dives--wetsuit, cold (except all the instructors and DMs who dived dry--EXCEPT ME....). I don't think we did weight checks at the ocean when I took OW in 2005, but that was Nov. 5 & 6.
On the courses I assisted, they were in summer and ocean weight checks were very thorough.
I can understand why they may be skipped when it's freezing, but perhaps suiting up in the 7 mils in the pool for a weight check then subtract 5 pounds for salt water. 20-25 mins. in the ocean in Nov. and 2 dives a day is dicey (after Oct. I do only one dive a day all winter wet). Then again, that would severely cut into allotted rented pool time, especially with classes of maybe 8-10.
Of interest, I know some advise no more than 4 to an OW course. Nice if you can do it. Our owner apparently has tried to get it to a max of 6, but it's hard, since out shop is basically the only one for many miles and the weekend courses are usually full.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

All makes sense. Similar situation here with the checkout dives--wetsuit, cold (except all the instructors and DMs who dived dry--EXCEPT ME....). I don't think we did weight checks at the ocean when I took OW in 2005, but that was Nov. 5 & 6.
On the courses I assisted, they were in summer and ocean weight checks were very thorough.
I can understand why they may be skipped when it's freezing, but perhaps suiting up in the 7 mils in the pool for a weight check then subtract 5 pounds for salt water. 20-25 mins. in the ocean in Nov. and 2 dives a day is dicey (after Oct. I do only one dive a day all winter wet). Then again, that would severely cut into allotted rented pool time, especially with classes of maybe 8-10.
Of interest, I know some advise no more than 4 to an OW course. Nice if you can do it. Our owner apparently has tried to get it to a max of 6, but it's hard, since out shop is basically the only one for many miles and the weekend courses are usually full.

The shop I at which I taught last didn't want their wetsuits in the pool, so they were either given a certain amount by staff (always too much) or the instructor either weighted them (which results in colder divers faster) or the instructor had a system of knowing the buoyancy characteristics of the BCD/cylinder/regulator assembly when drained to 500 psi and the wet suit in salt water and determined in the pool the buoyancy of the student in fresh water. Now the buoyancy of wetsuits decrease when worn as they are stretched and the weight needed for no exposure protection is marginally more than in the pool, however this got close. Usually only 1 or 2 lbs needed to be taken off after OW1.

These classes are typically packed to max ratios where assistants allow numbers to reach 12 per instructor.

 

[Scott]

I'm curious if the habit of training while kneeling began before BCD's were commonly used.

Yes, that is where it started and stayed.
Students had to wear ballast to offset the buoyancy of wetsuits. As the wetsuit compresses you become more negative. So instead of teaching divers to do skills swimming, they had them kneel to maintain some control of the class. Can you imagine what we would be discussing today had those pioneers taught skills while on the move?

When the article that Kosta referenced was being drafted there were numerous conversations and references about the images in the text and videos that PADI produces showing students on their knees. At some point there was an email sent by someone, Peter Guy if I recall, to PADI, basically asking why those images are still being used. I can't find the email, but they had no real answer. Training and media/marketing must not have communicated very well in those days.