Anti-Fogging Treatments for New Masks. (a comparison of techniques)

[stuartv]

Interesting. I placed it in a bowl of iced water for 30 minutes; Removed it and breathed on it. Fogged up. Rinsed in cold mild YBS then cold water and voila -- no fog at all. No matter how much I exhaled. Need to dive this thing to confirm performance in the ocean.

YBS? Y-something Baby Shampoo?

I will try some baby shampoo on my Deep6 (just done 2 days in ammonia), then cold water, and see if I get the same results. That would be very encouraging!

 

[tridacna]

YBS? Y-something Baby Shampoo?

I will try some baby shampoo on my Deep6 (just done 2 days in ammonia), then cold water, and see if I get the same results. That would be very encouraging!

Yellow Baby Shampoo. About one part YBS to 5 parts H2O. Tried again 5 mins ago. Resilient. Still no fogging.

 

[lowviz]

I will, but 2 questions:

I was planning to go diving tomorrow and try the new mask. Will diving it (with diluted J&J for defog) and then putting it back in the ammonia afterwards screw up the test?

No, it will make little to no difference in something that I'm beginning to suspect.

Are you suggesting that from what you know, if/when the ammonia has completely finished doing whatever it does, I should be able to breathe on a mask that has no defog and it should not fog up?

Well, I don't 'know' much yet but many pieces seem to be falling into place. I'm working on that write-up now. But to answer your question, if a mask is both spotlessly clean AND fully hydrophilic then yes it should not fog up even when cold but it won't last in that state very long as it is extremely easy to contaminate unprotected glass.

I.e. that what I said above implies that the ammonia treatment I gave it was not (yet) effective?

Yes, that is what I REALLY want to know.

I'm beginning to believe that I see a clear confounding effect of cleaning a glass surface vs. hydroxylating a glass surface. Ammonia should do both, but it seems that it cleans really rapidly and maybe hydroxylates (makes hydrophilic) much more slowly. I believe that the ideal 'seasoned' mask is fully hydroxylated which only leaves the routine tasks of cleaning and adding defog. Cleaning and defog appear to be easy, hydroxylating -not so much.

I'm jumping ahead (with the premature 'explanation' above) just so that you and interested others can adjust my thinking with all those very valuable trials on random masks and lots of great ideas...

 

[lowviz]

I took my superclean mask and added a smear of 'nose oil'. Yes, there is such a thing: Nasal sebum - Wikipedia:

It doesn't fog! More and more pieces are falling into place...

Nasal sebum, also known as nose grease/oil, is grease removed from the surface of the human nose. The pores of the lateral creases (where the nose joins the face) of the exterior of the nose create and store more oil and grease than pores elsewhere on the human body, forming a readily available source of small quantities of grease or oil. The grease is a particularly oily form of sebum, thought to contain more squalene (C30H50) than the secretions from other parts of the skin.[citation needed] It is notable because nose grease is a convenient durable lubricant.

Nose grease can be used to minimize scratches in optical surfaces, for example when cleaning photographic negatives.[1] Observatory lore holds that nose grease was used to reduce stray light and reflections in transmissive telescopes before the development of vacuum antireflective coatings.[2] The antireflective properties are due in part to the fact that the nose oil fills small cracks and scratches and forms a smooth, polished surface, and in part to the low index of refraction of the oil, which can reduce surface reflection from transmissive optics that have a high index of refraction. The same effect is sometimes used by numismatic hobbyists to alter the apparent grade of slightly worn coins.[3]

Nose grease is often recommended as a lubricant for fly fishing rod ferrules.[4] [5]

Nose grease has mild antifoaming properties and can be used to break down a high head on freshly poured beer or soft drinks. Wiping nose grease onto one's finger and then touching or stirring the foam causes it to dissipate rapidly.[6]



That was a true beast to photograph, but it doesn't fog! Anyone prove this wrong?

 

[stuartv]

I took my superclean mask and added a smear of 'nose oil'. Yes, there is such a thing: Nasal sebum - Wikipedia:

It doesn't fog! More and more pieces are falling into place...

Nasal sebum, also known as nose grease/oil, is grease removed from the surface of the human nose. The pores of the lateral creases (where the nose joins the face) of the exterior of the nose create and store more oil and grease than pores elsewhere on the human body, forming a readily available source of small quantities of grease or oil. The grease is a particularly oily form of sebum, thought to contain more squalene (C30H50) than the secretions from other parts of the skin.[citation needed] It is notable because nose grease is a convenient durable lubricant.

Nose grease can be used to minimize scratches in optical surfaces, for example when cleaning photographic negatives.[1] Observatory lore holds that nose grease was used to reduce stray light and reflections in transmissive telescopes before the development of vacuum antireflective coatings.[2] The antireflective properties are due in part to the fact that the nose oil fills small cracks and scratches and forms a smooth, polished surface, and in part to the low index of refraction of the oil, which can reduce surface reflection from transmissive optics that have a high index of refraction. The same effect is sometimes used by numismatic hobbyists to alter the apparent grade of slightly worn coins.[3]

Nose grease is often recommended as a lubricant for fly fishing rod ferrules.[4] [5]

Nose grease has mild antifoaming properties and can be used to break down a high head on freshly poured beer or soft drinks. Wiping nose grease onto one's finger and then touching or stirring the foam causes it to dissipate rapidly.[6]

Okay, I'll be the one. I will ask the obvious question that nobody wants to really think about.

Can you buy Nose Grease somewhere? Or is this purely a DIY technique?

 

[lowviz]

Nope, but I'm starting to think that skin oils aren't a problem with mask fogging...

 

[dmaziuk]

You can buy squalene, but keep in mind that a shark died for it.

 

[Couv]

I'll never wash my face again!
The best defog I've ever used was purchased from vendor at a boat show in New Orleans over 30 years ago. It's was not advertised as a mask defog product, but as a windshield anti-fog treatment. It looks a bit like a square crayon-orange in color. You put a few X's on the surface you want to defog and buff the product on the glass until invisible. It also has anti glare properties.

@lowviz 's two post above reminded me of this magic crayon that I'll have to re find and put back into service. The next best defog product I've used is a couple of small drops of straight J&J Baby Shampoo smeared all over the glass and left to dry (less is more.) Then with a clean dry cloth buff it until clear (just like above.)

The only reason I've not continued to use these methods is one of trust and lazyness. Yes, I know the treatment will last through the first dive-but I've never been brave enough to trust it on following dives. The work involved would make it worthwhile if I knew it would last all day but I never bothered to find out. As a solo diver, I guess I should be carrying two mask anyway.

 

[tridacna]

You can buy squalene, but keep in mind that a shark died for it.

Used to be that way. It’s hydrogenated form Squalane is now being derived mostly from plants such as olives and rice bran. My cousin is a chemist for a skin care company.

Can we get back to masks now? Sharks and boogers. Yowser.

 

[stuartv]

Well, while you lot were boning up on sharks and boogers, I went diving yesterday.

To recap a previous post, I got a new Deep6 Gear mask a week or so ago. I ran it through the dishwasher (with some dirty dishes in there, too, using 1 pod of Cascade Platinum, normal wash, no heated dry). Then I let it soak for approximately 48 hours in lemon-scented household ammonia. I rinsed it well with water. That is the only treatment I gave it.

Yesterday, I squirted some diluted J&J Baby Shampoo in it, swished it around, maybe even rubbed it in there a bit with my finger (can't remember), then dumped it out and gave it one or two quick dunks in the lake, then put it on and went diving.

The water was 50-51F. I was in for 1 hour.

I never had a hint of fogging during the entire dive. Woo-F***KING-hooOOO!!!

Now, I have to put in my caveat. I have yet to find a mask that doesn't leak on me. That is why I currently have 10 or 15 masks. I keep buying new ones to try, hoping to find one that doesn't leak. Normally, because of leaking, I clear my mask numerous times during a dive. It seems like it is generally after clearing it a few times that I start getting fogging.

With the Deep6 mask yesterday, It also basically did not leak on me (another wooHOO!!). I think I cleared a tiny bit of water out of the bottom of the mask once or maybe twice during the whole dive. So, the mask performed awesomely, but I don't feel like I gave it a real torture test, either. And, it was only one dive.

I did a second dive, for 90 minutes. On that dive, I wore my Mako Minimus mask. The Mako has been the mask that leaks the least of all my masks. It also has been the most fog-prone. In its history, I have scrubbed it with Dawn detergent, I have burned it. I have scrubbed it with a Magic Eraser. And after reading the early parts of this thread, I ran it through the dishwasher. After the dishwasher, it has been the most fog-resistant it has ever been. But, I've still had dives where it leaked and I cleared it numerous times and eventually it started fogging.

I soaked the Mako in ammonia for 2 days also, last week.

Yesterday, I did it like the Deep6 mask. A squirt of diluted BS (LOL), a quick dunk or two in the lake, and then put it on and went diving. It really did not leak on me yesterday. And it was crystal clear for 45 or 50 minutes. At that point, it was still crystal clear, so I decided to really test it. I started exhaling completely out of my nose, instead of my mouth. I did that something like 3 or 4 full breaths, exhaled out of my nose.

After that, it did start fogging. It was not terrible, but it was quite noticeable. I came to the surface after 1 hour total, took it off, spit in it, rubbed that around, a couple of quick dunks, and back down for another 30 minutes. No real fogging on that last part.

So, I have an Atomic Subrame ARC in the ammonia bath right now. It will come out tonight (after ~48 hours). I ran the AA through the dishwasher, as well. I guess I'm going to find out how durable that ARC coating is.

When the Atomic comes out, per the request from @lowviz, I will put the Deep6 mask back in for 5 more days. Maybe I'll go to the lake again next weekend and test the results of that...