Teric not Accepted as Primary Dive Computer?

[tmassey]

I'm guessing it's because the first post said the reasoning given was "The Teric is okay for backup, but not acceptable as a Primary as it does not give you all the dive data of the Perdix/Petrel."

Now, that could be interpreted as it doesn't display the same data on the screen or it could be interpreted as it doesn't log the same data and provide it for review.

You very well may be right. I think that sentence you’re quoting is just a really big oversimplification. The more nuanced version would need to describe the fact that the combination of the Teric and Shearwater Cloud does not easily integrate with the established workflow of class discussion as required by the instructor.

It’s not that the data isn’t logged, it’s that the Shearwater cloud interface does not present all of the information in the interactive graphic that Shearwater desktop does. And we spent a lot of time going over that data/graphic.

You’re probably going to ask me which piece of information it was. Honestly, I can’t remember. But it’s something that he refers to extensively while doing the class. As I’ve never used Shearwater cloud, nor do I wish to, I don’t even have a way of checking to see what’s different. IIRC, I think it was TTS, but honestly I don’t remember.

My guess is that if an *actual* potential student were curious about that, he and the instructor could have a detailed conversation about the oversimplification. For those who are not actually *going* to be students, what difference does it make what they think, or what a random Instructor requires in their class?

 

[saxman242]

For those who are not actually *going* to be students, what difference does it make what they think, or what a random Instructor requires in their class?

I would suspect that for some non-students, it could effect a purchasing decisions if the reasoning is some piece of critical information that isn't displayed vs something the doesn't suit that particular instructor's work flow.

 

[ChuckP]

Well, I think John is probably right. From what I have heard about him, I suspect he is correct. Meaning, his reputation is such that I doubt he would say that unless he had verified it for himself.

And from earlier posts in this thread, it may be that he setups up a Perdix to show things like @+5, and other things that most people do not use, on the main screen, so you can see it all without touching any buttons. And maybe with what he configures to show there, you cannot configure a Teric, even in OC Tec/Standard (i.e. 4 rows) mode to show all those things at the same time.

That is why I'm asking the question. And why I asked if somebody could post a picture of a Perdix screen that is setup the way JC has his students set theirs up. Or at least tell in detail how the screen is configured. Or screens, if he uses two and has them set differently.

I understand his other reason. If you can't change GF Hi during a dive, well, I think that is valid as a reason for him to reject using one as a primary. So, the question about what is displayed is purely academic. I would just like to know the answer.

For the people who seem bitter about rejecting a Teric because it doesn't allow you to change the GF Hi... well, @doctormike has already explained it pretty well. There are various reasons one might want to adjust it up OR down. It just depends on the specifics of the dive. But, while you may think that riding GF99 or SurfGF is so close to the same that it doesn't matter, it seems we all do agree that it is NOT the same. So, it's down to your judgment of whether it's "close enough".

And, so far, I haven't seen anybody weigh in and say it's "close enough" that seems to have remotely the credentials or experience that JC does, for making that judgment call... Personally, I think it probably is totally close enough - when your deco obligations don't even start until you get up to 10 or 20 or 30 feet. But, when your first deco stop is at 120', then I think it makes more of a difference - and maybe that difference DOES matter at that point. I certainly do not have enough experience with diving that deep to gainsay John Chatterton.

Don't shoot me - Teric owners correct me if I'm wrong. Again, I like the Teric and would own one if I wore a watch. I wear glasses and honestly, the bigger display of the Perdix is nice - for a rec dive, I could easily like the Teric display but when numbers matter, I like the bigger ones. I have dove with a Teric and I like the display, I just like the bigger numbers when I need to be looking at them.

This first picture is my two Perdix's with edits in Red of what we'd use in class - I switched back and forth with ceiling and delta+5 - the green check marks on the one computer is an example of what could be displayed on a Teric at one given moment. It looks to me that the Teric is lacking two items that could be displayed at some given time as compared to the Perdix.

It all circles back to the flash cards and his class. There is very little free time while you are completing your deco - look at this, look at that, gas switches, evaluate this, evaluate that - I learned a lot about my computer in this class....

This next picture is out of the Teric manual and I just picked things to display

 

[stuartv]

Wow, that's a massive back pedal. After reading 10 pages of this thread, what was said in the last one that caused such a turn around?

I assume you are talking to me. Assuming so...

The answer is two things: One, I have come to realize that JC is (probably) not saying the Teric can't show the same data. I think he is saying it can't show all the same data ON THE MAIN SCREEN AT ONE TIME (i.e. without any scrolling). And, two, that some of the things he wants to be shown are things that I suspect a lot of people don't normally look at. Things like @+5. I certainly don't ever look at that.

re display Q: I think the "display" issue was merely due to the inability to display a modified GFHi.

re GF99 and SurfGF: A Tec Instructor recently said to me about comparing GF99 and SurfGF upon assent, and that one would want that difference to be in the 30-40 range for efficient offgassing (e.g. having a GF of 1% and a much higher SurfGF means you’re not efficiently offgassing). The comment was said in the context of his typical Tec dives (he's also RB) as opposed to Rec depths.

IDK how the 'close enough' comment works from say a 60m ascent, but I suspect it doesn't work very well. A play with EFX's latest SS should tell us, I think it's the only tool that displays both GF99 and SurfGF.

FWIW I found the 30-40 range advice applicable to some Rec dives which pushed NDL to, or close to zero (I'm running GF99/99); it helped influence how much of the SS was a 6m vs. 3m on those dive, and IIRC on more benign Rec dives it suggested a SS closer to 3m than 6m (I have my Teric set to 6m).

The Teric will display whatever GF Hi you are using. "inability to display a modified GF Hi" is a non sequitur. Or something like that.

"one would want that difference to be in the 30-40 range" is the kind of oversimplification that could get an untrained person in trouble.

I don't know what EFX or SS are.

Assuming you mean in the context of this thread (class with JC): Nothing. There is nothing that the Perdix can display that the Teric can’t that’s relevant for the class. Nothing. One more time: the issue with the Teric is in no way related to anything related to information display on a Teric.

Your question is a non-sequitor. It’s like asking, “have you stop beating your wife?” It Presupposes a piece of information that is incorrect.

If you’re asking for that information in general, I can’t help you: I’ve never used a Teric, never looked at the manual, and never looked at what it can display. My general understanding is, that there isn’t anything that the Perdix can display that the Teric can’t. That’s probably your assumption as well, which is why you keep asking this question. What I don’t understand is, why do you think the problem with the Terric has anything to do with the information it can or cannot display?

Again, this is all in the context of the class.

if you’re still confused, message me your telephone number: I think this would go much easier if it was actually a two way conversation!

I think you are missing my point. (I believe) the issue is not (as initially implied) that the Teric can't show all the data that a Perdix can. The issue is (implied now, by the quote from JC) that the Teric cannot display all the info at one time, on the main screen. I.e. You can customize the Perdix to show SettingX and SettingY both on the main screen at the same time, so you can see them both without pressing any buttons. But, you cannot set the Teric to show both SettingX and SettingY at the same time, on the main screen.

Thank you, @ChuckP for posting that pic. I am now going to spend a few minutes with my 2 Terics and see if I CAN set them up to show all the same data that your pictures describe. All at the same time, with no button pushing required. I'll be back in a few...

 

[stuartv]

Okay, so I have convinced myself that JC is sort of correct. But only sort of. I reckon I'm going to eat some crow here, too, though.

The Perdix shows 11 pieces of data:

Top: Depth, Elapsed Dive Time, Battery status, Deco Info
Center: T1 pressure, GasPO2, SurfGF (or other custom config)
Bottom: Mode (e.g. OC), Gas, NDL (which changes to Delta +5 Ceiling automatically, once NDL hits 0), TTS

With NDL changing to another thing once NDL hits 0 (and you can configure WHAT thing it changes to in your settings), that really means it can show 12 pieces of data.

The Teric, in Standard mode (i.e. 4 rows), with the "Center Row" set to show the max, 3 things, can only show 10 things.

Row 1: Battery status, Mode, Depth
Row 2: NDL/Deco Info (changes automatically), TTS
Row 3: T1 pressure, Gas PO2, SurfGF
Row 4: Elapsed Dive Time, Gas (shown below the dive time if it is not shown elsewhere on the screen)

That is with my Teric Center Row configured to match the Center Row that is shown in ChuckP's pics.

When configured that way, there is no way to set it to also show Delta +5 Ceiling, as you can with the Perdix.

Basically, the difference is that the Teric combines NDL and Deco Info into one field on the screen. I think that makes sense versus the way a Perdix does it. I mean, you don't need to see "deco info" if you have not exhausted your NDL. And you don't need to see NDL once it runs out and you have a mandatory deco obligation. Also, this is "like" the Perdix field for NDL that automatically changes to (in JC's case) Delta +5 Ceiling. So, if you consider the Perdix to really be showing 12, then the Teric is really showing 11.

So, the Teric combines two fields into one, but then it reduces the total number of fields you can see by 1, and that is where the truth of what JC said becomes clear.

Really, what it looks like when you still have NDL left is irrelevant. What it looks like once you go into deco is what matters.

In deco, the Perdix is showing you 9 things: Depth, Time, Deco, T1 pressure, GasPO2, SurfGF, Gas, Delta +5 Ceiling, and TTS.

In deco, the Teric can only show you 8 things.

All that said, in the pics from @ChuckP, both Perdixes are showing the tank pressure. I'm not sure if he was using that to show his back gas pressure on both computers, or if one was back gas and the other was a deco gas cylinder pressure. I use AI when I dive OC doubles. But, I only feel like I need the tank pressure to be showing on one of my computers. I do not use AI on my deco cylinders.

So, you COULD use 2 Terics and have all the info to be seen at one time. You would have to have one Teric to show the data shown on ChuckP's left Perdix, except for leaving off Delta +5 Ceiling. And then on your right Teric, you could have the 3 Center Row cells configured to show:

Delta +5 Ceiling, @+5, and GF99

You would just have to give up your redundant displays of cylinder pressure and GasPO2.

So, assuming you're only using one AI transmitter, I feel like JC is not entirely correct because:

Even on a Perdix, you can't display ALL the data he wants to display using just one Perdix. And if you're going to rely on 2 computers to see all the different pieces of data you want, well then you can use 2 Terics and see it all, too. You just lose redundant display of 2 fields (since there a total of 2 less pieces of data shown on 2 Terics vs 2 Perdixes).

My crow that I'm eating is that I'm pretty sure I have explicitly said in the past that the Teric will actually show as much or more data as the Perdix. I realize now that that is simply not correct. At most, the Teric only really has 8 data fields on the screen (beyond battery status and Mode). The Perdix has 9 (plus battery status and Mode).

Here are my Terics showing all the same data that @ChuckP's Perdixes are (would be) showing:

 

[stuartv]

Oh, and as far as downloading and reviewing dive data in class: I believe that the Perdix can be downloaded into a piece of of software called the Shearwater Desktop, where you can then review your dive data.

When Shearwater brought out the Teric, they ALSO rolled out the Shearwater Cloud - basically a different piece of software for downloading from the Teric. The data format that downloads from the Teric is different than the Perdix. The Teric data download can carry more data in it. Specifically, the Teric allows the diver to "tag" moments in their dive and those tags are downloaded. The Perdix and prior don't have dive tags. Shearwater wants everyone to move to their Cloud platform, so they did not add support for the Teric in the Shearwater Desktop application.

Apparently, JC uses the downloads into the Shearwater Desktop as part of his class. So, it makes sense that he would require everyone to use a computer that can be downloaded into that application. Which means only Shearwaters - and not Shearwater Terics.

That said, if he cares about keeping up with the times, he would change from using the Shearwater software and start using Subsurface. Subsurface is free and can download from any Shearwater and just about any other computer on the market. And the dive log is way nicer. I.e. the ability to review a dive is a lot nicer. And Subsurface has an excellent dive planner tool built into it as well.

He might still require Shearwater computers (for reasons other than the downloading and reviewing part), but he could at least allow Terics (as a primary).

 

[ChuckP]

My Blue computer is my secondary computer for back mount diving and while I do leave the AI set for tank one - it is displaying the same thing as my primary computer - I can look at either computer and know my back gas amount along with whatever else I'm looking at - I don't have to look at two computers to make a decision.

My blue computer is my primary for side mount and I do use two transmitters, I don't use two transmitters when back mount diving. I just turned them on the way they are sitting here and used the red edits to say what they would be in that class. I dive both normal recreational and side mount enough that I just don't swap the computer settings around anymore. The deco diving I do and plan for is based on TTS and I look at Surf GF, drift multi level dives, I don't bother with @+5, GF99 for the type of diving I do.

I see where I missed the gas being used display on the Teric, it didn't show it on the picture I was using, So yes, only one less item, not two.

@stuartv can you download dives directly into the Shearwater Desktop software or do you need the cloud version? He used the desktop and had 100's of other student dives on there when we looked at stuff in the classroom - there isn't much difference, I wish they'd let you change the background color, I hate the dark screen.

 

[stuartv]

My Blue computer is my secondary computer for back mount diving and while I do leave the AI set for tank one - it is displaying the same thing as my primary computer - I can look at either computer and know my back gas amount along with whatever else I'm looking at - I don't have to look at two computers to make a decision.

My blue computer is my primary for side mount and I do use two transmitters, I don't use two transmitters when back mount diving. I just turned them on the way they are sitting here and used the red edits to say what they would be in that class. I dive both normal recreational and side mount enough that I just don't swap the computer settings around anymore. The deco diving I do and plan for is based on TTS and I look at Surf GF, drift multi level dives, I don't bother with @+5, GF99 for the type of diving I do.

I see where I missed the gas being used display on the Teric, it didn't show it on the picture I was using, So yes, only one less item, not two.

@stuartv can you download dives directly into the Shearwater Desktop software or do you need the cloud version? He used the desktop and had 100's of other student dives on there when we looked at stuff in the classroom - there isn't much difference, I wish they'd let you change the background color, I hate the dark screen.

See my last post.

 

[ChuckP]

Oh, and as far as downloading and reviewing dive data in class: I believe that the Perdix can be downloaded into a piece of of software called the Shearwater Desktop, where you can then review your dive data.

When Shearwater brought out the Teric, they ALSO rolled out the Shearwater Cloud - basically a different piece of software for downloading from the Teric. The data format that downloads from the Teric is different than the Perdix. The Teric data download can carry more data in it. Specifically, the Teric allows the diver to "tag" moments in their dive and those tags are downloaded. The Perdix and prior don't have dive tags. Shearwater wants everyone to move to their Cloud platform, so they did not add support for the Teric in the Shearwater Desktop application.

Apparently, JC uses the downloads into the Shearwater Desktop as part of his class. So, it makes sense that he would require everyone to use a computer that can be downloaded into that application. Which means only Shearwaters - and not Shearwater Terics.

That said, if he cares about keeping up with the times, he would change from using the Shearwater software and start using Subsurface. Subsurface is free and can download from any Shearwater and just about any other computer on the market. And the dive log is way nicer. I.e. the ability to review a dive is a lot nicer. And Subsurface has an excellent dive planner tool built into it as well.

He might still require Shearwater computers (for reasons other than the downloading and reviewing part), but he could at least allow Terics (as a primary).

I looked at a dive in both Subsurface and Shearwater Desktop and even with the gradient factors the same - the deco profiles do not follow..... It has to be a different Buhlam model.

Download and look at a few and see if you get the same thing, it was a 160' dive, 20ish minutes bottom time.

I wish Shearwater would allow us to see tissue graphs like the Subsurface one does......

He's very big on dive evaluation, seeing how your run time was verses planned, ascent and descent rates...... Gas consumption...

 

[Jay]

IDK how the 'close enough' comment works from say a 60m ascent, but I suspect it doesn't work very well. A play with EFX's latest SS should tell us, I think it's the only tool that displays both GF99 and SurfGF.

FWIW I found the 30-40 range advice applicable to some Rec dives which pushed NDL to, or close to zero (I'm running GF99/99); it helped influence how much of the SS was a 6m vs. 3m on those dive, and IIRC on more benign Rec dives it suggested a SS closer to 3m than 6m (I have my Teric set to 6m).

"one would want that difference to be in the 30-40 range" is the kind of oversimplification that could get an untrained person in trouble.

How so? I suspect you might be thinking that the comment could be saying to look at that difference in preference to (or to heavily influence) Stop depths?

I assumed that the range (30-40) would be something that aligned with Stop depths. Especially given the perceived calibre of the person making the comment.

I don't know what EFX or SS are.

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