GUE & Halcyon Gear

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@CuriousRambler

we are discussing where buying Halcyon gear is the best interest in the student which I deny. Your research is not as extensive as you believe if you have never heard of XDeep. That actually blew my mind.

Halcyon makes great gear, but not always the best. Educated instructors should be able to give some guidance to allow a student make a more informed decision.

it is that simple

 

[CuriousRambler]

@CuriousRambler

we are discussing where buying Halcyon gear is the best interest in the student which I deny. Your research is not as extensive as you believe if you have never heard of XDeep. That actually blew my mind.

Halcyon makes great gear, but not always the best. Educated instructors should be able to give some guidance to allow a student make a more informed decision.

it is that simple

See, now you're either intentionally taking my words out of context, simply not reading what I wrote, or just being plain ignorant.

I pretty clearly stated I haven't purchased a BP/W in over a decade. Ten seconds of research shows XDeep was founded May 1st, 2011. Let's call today May 1st for easy math, basic arithmetic shows 2020-2011= nine years since XDeep was founded. In case you're unaware, a decade is ten years. Ten years is more than nine years. Which means I've had no reason to research BP/W's since XDeep has been in existence. But yeah, targeting my statements about my personal gear habits is a good way to keep the conversation from being objective and oriented to the discussion at hand. Again, this supports my argument that an instructor may not be your best source of information, assuming we accept an instructor's job is not to be your personal gear advisor. We also may simply disagree on that point, which is fine. That's the beauty of being able to select an instructor who meets your personal requirements. I'm going to do my own research regardless, so my instructor's level of (edited for clarity): knowledge regarding current market offerings doesn't concern me either way.

I've repeatedly said Halcyon doesn't necessarily make the best gear. Thank you for agreeing with me on that point, and stating it as though you're disagreeing with what I repeatedly wrote. You cannot deny they make gear that meets GUE's requirements, can you? This point is all I'm looking at with regards to "in a student's best interest."

I think we simply disagree on the role of an instructor. My opinion is that an instructor is there to teach me how to use my equipment safely and effectively, and do so in a way that meets the course requirements. I assume we agree on that much. I would expect any instructor to be able to have an informed discussion on the gear at hand, explaining the why of selecting one feature over another, or why I should avoid another feature altogether. To my mind, this is exactly in line with your statement that "educated instructors should be able to give some guidance to allow a student to make a more informed decision." Brand/make/model need not have any place in this discussion for it to be complete, IMO. I also don't believe suggesting students buy Halcyon, or any other specific product necessarily contradicts that goal or that process. Given that Halcyon's gear is, again, a known quantity - it simply makes an easy example of "this is in line with what features we suggest." That, again, is not claiming it's the best product available for the role, the least expensive, the most available, or anything else. You're turning my statements into absolutes, which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make: using one piece of gear as an example (ex•am•ple ĭg-zăm′pəl: n. One that is representative of a group as a whole) of what works is distinctly different than suggesting it's the best, the cheapest, or the only option.

Edit: In summary: does Halcyon gear meet GUE standards? I'm not a GUE diver, so could be mistaken, but my understanding is that the answer is an absolute "yes." If that's an accurate statement, then having a GUE instructor suggest Halcyon gear as an option simply makes sense. My argument is predicated on the idea that the only objective assessment of "in a student's best interest" is equipment that meets the course requirements. Subjectively, you may consider something else "better," but I may prefer a competing product. At best, 'better' is difficult to quantify. Maybe money is of no concern to a given student, so "cheaper" simply doesn't matter to all. Objectively, the equipment will need to meet course standards.

If an instructor "crosses the line" and suggests Halcyon gear is the only option, then I suspect you and I are firmly in the same camp.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I’m done here.

 

[KevinNM]

A short and I think kind-of accurate history: Extreme Exposure was the first organization - I don't know the story of how EE got founded. Then JJ's exploration divers needed stuff that basically wasn't available, and he started building it in a back room at EE. Halcyon was created when building stuff in the EE back room got out of hand. GUE was created later to a large extent because JJ got tired of personally having to train people to support his exploration dives. And it grew from there.

 

[EireDiver606]

oh come on, your comment above highlighted in bold? That have me a good laugh. Halcyon makes great gear, there is no question about it, but so do other manufacturers that cost less that in many cases are just as good.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you, off the top of your head, confidently name a single source manufacturer with comparable quality BP/W, DSMB, and a can light too?

I won't even say H gear is "better" than the rest. I think in some cases their stuff is demonstrably inferior (backup lights, IMO) to some of their competition. But it's simply not reasonable to assume a non-dealer instructor will be familiar with every brand on the market, and if this model from that manufacturer is up to snuff. I think most manufacturers offer SOME great products, and probably more than a few wastes of money (Halcyon included). That is to say you can't reliably say "anything Kleenex brand is good, and compatible with the philosophy we teach." Halcyon *does* offer that.

So again, I'm not saying H is better, or that there isn't a more affordable alternative (though in some cases I've been hard pressed to find a cheaper alternative of comparable quality). But @EireDiver606's point of "in the student's best interest" isn't inaccurate either. It's a simple "this gear WILL work." It's not a claim that it's the ONLY gear that will work.

Same as @CuriousRambler ‘s post. Not saying Halcyon is the only alternative but it is the best for a GUE instructors to recommend in their situation as was described by CR.

Many divers use Halcyon. In many areas (but not all maybe), they make the best gear.

It’s funny how people think GUE divers buy H products because they think we just like the idea of the “best”. Wrong - it’s gear used by explorers across the world that simply works and has advantages and quality over other gear.

 

[PfcAJ]

I have more halcyon gear than most. For me, I feel that it is the “best”.

It functions well, it’s durable, I can get replacement parts easily, and H provides great product support that I really don’t have to use all that often.

If someone came to me and said “hey AJ, I’m lookin to take a GUE class. What’s the best gear to get?” I’d almost certainly recommend H stuff because I’ve personally experienced what I outlined above.

Is there other stuff that works? Definitely. But I know that Halcyon makes good stuff that’s functional for the type of diving I do and they provide good support. Simple.

To me, it’s the best.

 

[michael-fisch]

The only exception that I remember was Halcyon's first flirt with metal inflator buttons.
Those damn things were incapable of working properly for more than a half year without being disassembled, cleaned, having the O-Rings replaced, and being relubed - a major quality difference for someone who was used to Sherwood plastic inflators that would work fine for 20 years without being serviced.
I learned that just because the blue H is on something, it doesn't have to be good. It just means that someone thought that it was good enough to please customers and leave a big enough profit margin.

Now before I buy new gear, I listen around for a year or so, before spending my money.

Michael
PS I can also remember seeing a Halcyon wing almost 20 years ago marked "Made in Haiti".

 

[jadairiii]

The only exception that I remember was Halcyon's first flirt with metal inflator buttons.

I was at DEMA the year they rolled out that inflator. They were so proud of it, I took one look at it and told them it was identical to the Water Gill At Pac inflator....which was a POS unless you serviced it regularly. I bluntly told them its short comings and that it would fail. This "opinion" was based on owning an At-Pac for over 20 years and I was still diving it when I was at that show (and I own 4 Halcyon wings, but never with those inflators)

 

[kammel78]

Love their mask straps, best in the industry and can easily net you a 10% decrease in your RMV!!

Seriously, though, couldn't stand the Focus 2.0 after the switch started acting up. Swapped it for a Bobby light and have never been happier. Also, I know just about all the SPGs come from the same factory but H must be getting the B stock. I've gotten wildly inconsistent readings between different SPGs that get filled at the same time.

Love the SMBs that you can inflate with one hand and I like their spools that don't have the huge hole in the middle so you can hold them in the middle without sticking a finger through and potentially losing your finger if a boat catches it. OMS is the only other spool I've found similar. Regs are great if you don't mind getting Scubapro's latest design updates a few years late. Love their backmount wings and, oddly enough, really like their webbing - good balance between stiffness and flexibility. I actually tore out the adjustable webbing from my SM75 and replaced it with H webbing for a Hollicyon? Halcyhollis? hybrid.

 

[BlueTrin]

For all it’s worth: in the Fundies class that I took, the only person who got a technical pass straight at the end of the class was not using any Halcyon gear.

Also the instructor said that, even though he liked Halcyon gear for himself, he also said that it is by no means necessary to get Halcyon gear for Fundies as long as it complies with the requirements (someone asked him pretty much this question during the class)