GUE's advantage in terms of content? cave training

[ginti]

Hi guys!

Old discussion, I've read so many threads, but I still cannot figure out what are the main differences in terms of contents between GUE Cave 1 and other courses (so NOT about the way of teaching and/or presenting contents). My point is that I really cannot understand what a GUE tec-pass rated student would get from a c1 more than from another course taught by a great instructor with a strong team-focus (for instance, a GUE cave2 diver often participating in projects).

DISCLAIMER 1: I already choose my path, so I am not asking about which one is better for me

DISCLAIMER 2: differences in philosophy are clear, I am not interested in understanding them

Now, a generic cave course covers:
- theoretical topics (e.g. navigation, tools and equipments, etc.)
- land drills (e.g. simulation of no viz exit)
- in-water skills (no-viz exit, failures, etc.).
What are the differences in terms of these three areas between GUE c1 and others? Is there anything taught by GUE that is usually not covered by other agencies? I am thinking specifically of TDI and IANTD, but comparisons with other agencies (CMAS, Cave Diving Group etc.) are welcome as well.

Experience of people with more certifications are more than welcome )

Thanks!

 

[Edward3c]

To be clear BSAC does not teach cave diving, in the UK that's left to the Cave Diving Group of the British Caving Association. Who were using long hose configerations before most of the 'technical' agencies formed.

 

[AJ]

My point is that I really cannot understand what a GUE tec-pass rated student would get from a c1 more than from another course taught by a great instructor with a strong team-focus (for instance, a GUE cave2 diver often participating in projects).

No gains in this case, but a c1 cert gives the opportunity to dive with GUE c1 and c2 teams. If this is important to you, do c1. If not, there are a lot of great cave instructors outside of GUE.

 

[Manatee Diver]

A good cave instructor will teach very similarly, the differences will be minor differences in philosophy.

 

[ginti]

I edited a bit, to make my questions clearer

 

[grassgreen]

Do you mean what are the differences between different agencies course standards ? ie, what things have to be covered rather than are optional ?

 

[ginti]

Do you mean what are the differences between different agencies course standards ? ie, what things have to be covered rather than are optional ?

Yes

 

[kierentec]

Hi,
As a GUE Fundamentals instructor, and Cave, CCR Cave, DPV, etc. Instructor Trainer for other agencies (TDI and IANTD, and an NSS-CDS instructor), I can say the biggest difference is consistency in protocols. Navigation and failure resolution being the big ones. No matter which GUE instructor you train with, these things will be consistent (and taught properly, in my opinion). With any other agency, you can get a HUGE variation in how these things are done, and as you know from the research you have done, the quality of instruction varies wildly as well.

Edit to add a bit:
With the GUE content, all procedures are applicable to any cave environment. TDI and IANTD instructors will generally teach to the area they are most familiar with. Most of the navigation and failure resolution procedures I see taught in Mexico would not work in Florida and vice versa, for example.

 

[ginti]

Edit to add a bit:
With the GUE content, all procedures are applicable to any cave environment. TDI and IANTD instructors will generally teach to the area they are most familiar with. Most of the navigation and failure resolution procedures I see taught in Mexico would not work in Florida and vice versa, for example.

Hi Jon,

This is precisely what I need to understand. I am not cave/tech certified yet, so my understanding of both navigation and failure resolutions is limited to what I did during the fundamentals and some discussion with friends.

I can't imagine a protocol/technique/whatever that works in Mexico but not in France (or any other places). In the end, an S-drill is an S-drill right? Closing the valves is the same everywhere or not? Using the line? Etc.

Is it be possible for you to discuss it a bit more, maybe with some examples? I would be very grateful! Thanks a lot )

 

[kierentec]

Hi Jon,

This is precisely what I need to understand. I am not cave/tech certified yet, so my understanding of both navigation and failure resolutions is limited to what I did during the fundamentals and some discussion with friends.

I can't imagine a protocol/technique/whatever that works in Mexico but not in France (or any other places). In the end, an S-drill is an S-drill right? Closing the valves is the same everywhere or not? Using the line? Etc.

Is it be possible for you to discuss it a bit more, maybe with some examples? I would be very grateful! Thanks a lot )

Without going through all of the procedures one by one, a good example is the GUE SOPs. They exist, whereas other agencies don't really have anything like that. TDI standards say things like "respond to a failed regulator" or "demonstrate navigational techniques" and leaves it up to the instructor to make up whatever they think should work (and every instructor think their way is the best, of course), whereas GUE SOPs give you a step by step procedure for managing every type of failure. This keeps everyone in the team on the same page as failures arise in real life (because they do). Same goes with navigation, there are many TDI/IANTD/NSS-CDS instructors in Florida that insist on NOT marking navigation in any way. Then there is a group of instructors in Mexico that teach to jump off of a personal arrow, placing that arrow in the direction of YOUR exit even if it contradicts the system markers (horrible, horrible, horrible idea, by the way). You would think "an S-Drill is an S-Drill", "a valve drill is a valve drill" or "marking a piece of string is marking a piece of string", but it's not. There are many varieties to all of this stuff, some of it is very lazy or just plain dangerous.

When you get in the water with a certified TDI/IANTD/etc. cave diver, you have absolutely NO idea how they will manage every scenario without going through every possible one in the pre-dive. Which nobody does, and leads to serious confusion when coming to a navigation decision and everyone starts doing different things. Same with failures.

When you get in the water with a GUE trained diver, anywhere in the world, there is no need to have those discussions. You not only know the caliber of diver you are dealing with but also how they will manage issues as they arise.

Full disclosure, I am not a GUE Cave instructor, only fundamentals. However, I dive primarily with GUE trained divers and am currently in the process to attain GUE C1/T1 instructor status.