Genesis 2.2 vs Seacraft vs Magnus

[Jack Hammer]

As for the suggestion to get a cheaper DPV that you are guaranteed to outgrow in a year or two, all the while suffering the clunky speed control, having to recharge the small batteries between dives, having to disassemble it to recharge (which risks contaminating the seals, resulting in it leaking) not having enough thrust for sustained high current situations, being depth limited, having to replace shaft seals and various other issues. Yeah, that's a great idea.

Jon, I think you make a much more solid product that doesnt compare to a $1,500 scooter. Not sure why you would put it in the same league by comparing the two.

 

[tbone1004]

Hi QAQTAT,

For those near the border that don't want to get gouged by the shipping companies for customs clearance fees, we can ship it to a FedEx location in the US as "hold for pickup". You are on the honor system to claim it at the border after that.

As for the suggestion to get a cheaper DPV that you are guaranteed to outgrow in a year or two, all the while suffering the clunky speed control, having to recharge the small batteries between dives, having to disassemble it to recharge (which risks contaminating the seals, resulting in it leaking) not having enough thrust for sustained high current situations, being depth limited, having to replace shaft seals and various other issues. Yeah, that's a great idea.

You may want to do a little more homework on other brands that claim they have external recharging, as you will likely find out that you still have to break the waterproof seal on the hull to access it and failing to reseal it will result in flooding.

...and you might also want to consider how you would ship a large lithium battery back for repair, especially overseas, since any battery over 100Wh requires formal Dangerous Goods declarations for air transport. Doing that requires documented training classes, shipping company approval and that the batteries be UN38.3 tested.

Cheers,
Jon

basically what @Jack Hammer said. The difference between a scooter that costs $2k and $8k is pretty substantial. It's rated more than deep enough, it's more than fast enough, and for $6k I can deal with really clunky speed control, though frankly the whole trigger system on your DPV is basically a giant zit on the face of a super model, but that horse has been beaten to death more than enough. If we survived with Tekna's and UV18's/Gavin's in cave country where your scooters are still essentially unheard and functionally irrelevant *there are what, maybe 6 of them total in cave country?*? the difference in "hey I may be doing cave diving in the future and want to invest in a DPV but am still 2 years away from the point that I can use one in a cave" and "hey I'm doing 5k penetrations and my UV26 doesn't have enough range, so I need a big honkin primary scooter and the UV26 is going to be my backup so I can get out safely" is not even in the realm of discussion. Your DPV's are incredible, though I still maintain that the whole handle system is literally a giant zit on a super model and takes all of the sexiness of the rest of the design and just makes it an eye sore, but that's beside the point. You have an incredible product, but it's damned near $8k. The blacktip is a quarter of the price and if in 2 years the diver is still in it for real and needs a proper primary, then they need an adequate backup DPV. At that point you invest the $8k in something like a Genesis 2.1 which if they came in and said I need a long range/high speed DPV the Genesis would frankly be the first on me list, but that's quite literally the same as a guy saying he wants to get learn how to road race and saying he should go buy a Koenigsegg as his first car. The Blacktip literally broke the entire DPV market when it came out and for good bloody reason. It doesn't even think to compete with your DPV's, but your DPV is not appropriate for what this guy wants to do, at least not yet. I can't in good conscience recommend an $8k DPV against a $2k DPV when the guy says it's open water only, cave hopefully next year *which means at minimum 2 years out for cave DPV*, and at that point I firmly maintain that you need a backup DPV.

Also, you need to get a proper demo center in Florida...

 

[divingx]

when the guy says it's open water only, cave hopefully next year

Sorry I didn’t express myself clearly. I need the scooter for caves now. I meant I only used OC in caves. Do you think black tip exploration is a good choice? The range looks fine for me. Would you recommend to use it in caves?

 

[Superlyte27]

basically what @Jack Hammer said. The difference between a scooter that costs $2k and $8k is pretty substantial. It's rated more than deep enough, it's more than fast enough, and for $6k I can deal with really clunky speed control, though frankly the whole trigger system on your DPV is basically a giant zit on the face of a super model, but that horse has been beaten to death more than enough. If we survived with Tekna's and UV18's/Gavin's in cave country where your scooters are still essentially unheard and functionally irrelevant *there are what, maybe 6 of them total in cave country?*? the difference in "hey I may be doing cave diving in the future and want to invest in a DPV but am still 2 years away from the point that I can use one in a cave" and "hey I'm doing 5k penetrations and my UV26 doesn't have enough range, so I need a big honkin primary scooter and the UV26 is going to be my backup so I can get out safely" is not even in the realm of discussion. Your DPV's are incredible, though I still maintain that the whole handle system is literally a giant zit on a super model and takes all of the sexiness of the rest of the design and just makes it an eye sore, but that's beside the point. You have an incredible product, but it's damned near $8k. The blacktip is a quarter of the price and if in 2 years the diver is still in it for real and needs a proper primary, then they need an adequate backup DPV. At that point you invest the $8k in something like a Genesis 2.1 which if they came in and said I need a long range/high speed DPV the Genesis would frankly be the first on me list, but that's quite literally the same as a guy saying he wants to get learn how to road race and saying he should go buy a Koenigsegg as his first car. The Blacktip literally broke the entire DPV market when it came out and for good bloody reason. It doesn't even think to compete with your DPV's, but your DPV is not appropriate for what this guy wants to do, at least not yet. I can't in good conscience recommend an $8k DPV against a $2k DPV when the guy says it's open water only, cave hopefully next year *which means at minimum 2 years out for cave DPV*, and at that point I firmly maintain that you need a backup DPV.

Also, you need to get a proper demo center in Florida...

What would you like to Demo? I have all of the scooters available to Demo in Central Florida, available from Key Largo to Cave Country.

 

[BrackaFish]

What would you like to Demo? I have all of the scooters available to Demo in Central Florida, available from Key Largo to Cave Country.

Now this sounds like the beginning of a really, really fun weekend! Now all that is needed is a decision between saltwater or caves.

 

[Superlyte27]

Now this sounds like the beginning of a really, really fun weekend! Now all that is needed is a decision between saltwater or caves.

Let's do both
Ginnie one day, Spiegel Grove the next. I'll bring scooters, you buy lunch.

 

[Jon Nellis]

Hey guys, I'm planning to invest in a DPV...
... I'm living in Ontario so the scooter has to work in cold water, but I also do cave diving in Florida and Mexico.

I thought you were quite clear, but some people don't bother to actually read posts before offering opinions, hence my reply to his suggestion. But since he seems bent on forcing his opinion on everyone, let's take a look at the numbers. He suggest a "exploration" DPV with four 216Wh batteries for 864 Wh total and a max continuous thrust of around 43lbs with short burst to 57lbs of thrust before it has to slow back down to prevent overheating. Running that DPV at max continuous thrust will only get you a max speed of about 180ft/min with doubles and a stage or rebreather and a bailout bottle with 85 minutes of run time (per the manufactures performance chart), but you definitely do not want to plan on using more than 2/3 of that in a cave, so 56 minutes usable run time . Try that in a Florida cave like Jackson Blue when it has unusually high flow and you are not going to get very far, so your long trip down from Toronto on vacation will be a bit of a let down if conditions aren't ideal.

Just for fun, let's look at the motor efficiency (that's what us engineers do for fun at least). If that DPV consumes 864Wh in 85 minutes (1.417hrs), the motor is running around 610 watts of power to propel you with its 43lbs of thrust. For planning purposes in a cave, this is where I would say that you need to reserve at least 1/3 of that 864WH of power, in case you need to tow your buddy out (since towing a buddy requires more power to go the same speed) but that DPV is already running at max continuous power and can only go slightly faster for a few minutes on "boost", so you will definitely be going slower on the way out. Hopefully you brought enough gas, in the unlikely event of of multiple failures.

Just for reference, the Genesis only requires about 340 watts (just over half the power) to generate the same 43lbs of thrust. So our little 2.1 with 850Wh of battery would run for around 150 minutes at the same speed and we don't consider the 2.1 an "exploration" DPV. This is why you need to do some homework (it's just simple math) and not rely on marketing hype terms like "exploration" or recommendations from people on forums that don't bother to read your post carefully or put any real thought into your particular situation.

As for dealers in north Florida, Underwater Adventures (Superlyte27) can set you up with a test ride and Edd at Cave Adventurers is also dealer, but I just spoke with him yesterday and he just sold his demo to someone who was going on vacation soon and it will be a little while before I can get him another demo scooter. We have a long lead time right now due to high demand for DPVs and a project for the military.

 

[Superlyte27]

I thought you were quite clear, but some people don't bother to actually read posts before offering opinions, hence my reply to his suggestion. But since he seems bent on forcing his opinion on everyone, let's take a look at the numbers. He suggest a "exploration" DPV with four 216Wh batteries for 864 Wh total and a max continuous thrust of around 43lbs with short burst to 57lbs of thrust before it has to slow back down to prevent overheating. Running that DPV at max continuous thrust will only get you a max speed of about 180ft/min with doubles and a stage or rebreather and a bailout bottle with 85 minutes of run time (per the manufactures performance chart), but you definitely do not want to plan on using more than 2/3 of that in a cave, so 56 minutes usable run time . Try that in a Florida cave like Jackson Blue when it has unusually high flow and you are not going to get very far, so your long trip down from Toronto on vacation will be a bit of a let down if conditions aren't ideal.

Just for fun, let's look at the motor efficiency (that's what us engineers do for fun at least). If that DPV consumes 864Wh in 85 minutes (1.417hrs), the motor is running around 610 watts of power to propel you with its 43lbs of thrust. For planning purposes in a cave, this is where I would say that you need to reserve at least 1/3 of that 864WH of power, in case you need to tow your buddy out (since towing a buddy requires more power to go the same speed) but that DPV is already running at max continuous power and can only go slightly faster for a few minutes on "boost", so you will definitely be going slower on the way out. Hopefully you brought enough gas, in the unlikely event of of multiple failures.

Just for reference, the Genesis only requires about 340 watts (just over half the power) to generate the same 43lbs of thrust. So our little 2.1 with 850Wh of battery would run for around 150 minutes at the same speed and we don't consider the 2.1 an "exploration" DPV. This is why you need to do some homework (it's just simple math) and not rely on marketing hype terms like "exploration" or recommendations from people on forums that don't bother to read your post carefully or put any real thought into your particular situation.

As for dealers in north Florida, Underwater Adventures (Superlyte27) can set you up with a test ride and Edd at Cave Adventurers is also dealer, but I just spoke with him yesterday and he just sold his demo to someone who was going on vacation soon and it will be a little while before I can get him another demo scooter. We have a long lead time right now due to high demand for DPVs and a project for the military.

Jon's lead times aren't really all that bad compared to some things in the dive industry.

 

[tbone1004]

Sorry I didn’t express myself clearly. I need the scooter for caves now. I meant I only used OC in caves. Do you think black tip exploration is a good choice? The range looks fine for me. Would you recommend to use it in caves?

I misunderstood, though I did read it all.

Here's the thing, and @Jon Nellis pointed it out. Jon's DPV's are engineered in such a way that they almost seem too good to be true in terms of their raw power and efficiency. His tail cone design is disgustingly good. He is also 100% correct that something like a Black Tip will struggle in JB if it is pumping, and you will struggle to get through the lips at Ginnie, etc. I say struggle because it is comparably powerful to a UV18/26. You will still make forward progress, but probably around 100fpm max from my experience in those caves with a UV26...

I would have no problem using the Blacktip in the caves if you're learning cave DPV and you are not barreling back to 5,000ft. One thing that hasn't been mentioned that will again piss Jon off, but so be it, is what some of my buddies do when they have to fly in. Just rent a big primary for $100/day. Buy something like a Black Tip for diving caves like Little River, Twin, if much of Hole in the Wall, or other lower flow/shorter cave systems, and if you plan on barreling back to the end of JB, or doing a bunch of diving in one day, or whatever, then rent something like a Genesis from @Superlyte27 or whatever other big primary scooter you want to rent and let them eat that cost. If you buy a Blacktip for $2k, and you rent a Genesis/Magnus/Seacraft/Bonex/Suex/whatever else for 60 diving days, you have the same $8k invested as if you bought one of those scooters but all of those big dives were done with a backup scooter that increases your safety factor while cave diving, and you get a cheap/small/good enough DPV for use when running around at home.
If you're committed to big cave dives now, then buy a real scooter, but if you look at the math above, I just can't recommend in good conscience that you buy an exploration grade scooter. Is it better? No doubt, but you have to decide for yourself if the $6k is worth it. It's literally whether one of those scooter is 3-4x better than the Blacktip. If we had this discussion a year ago? Very different ballgame, but this little thing literally broke the entire DPV market.

 

[Peter Slater]

Buy a Blacktip tech. It will be more than enough for you now. It should be at least 2 years before you need anything resembling a Genesis or Piranha P2 for range purposes and who knows what will happen between now and then. The Blacktip is cheap and will be a perfect backup scooter whenever you outgrow it as a primary.

I was also looking at a DPV but for shore diving. Is there a reason you recommend the blacktip tech model over the travel (shorter) or exploration (more batteries)?

I might take superlyte up on his offer to demo the Genesis, but I might end up spending the 7k price difference to get a rebreather. I have the optima cm unit on my radar.