I forget where I saw this, but the quote went something like half the people attempting deep air dives don't come up, and half of those who do have serious and lasting health problems. Given that statistics, it's gotta be the prehistoric deep-sea megalodon that can bite two people at once. How could it be anything else, right?
1997 Deep Dive/Shark Attack.
- Thread starter ReelHard
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InTheDrink
Contributor
Ever been pushed down deep by a shark?
Deep air is a poor idea. I don’t think anyone disputes that.
I just get slightly annoyed when people make assumptions that it can’t of been this or that. In this case there are plenty of agents to make this go wrong. Simply thinking it was just a deep air gig issue I think is presumptuous.
Curious factoids:
- Scuba divers were 3% of the shark attacks in 2019, 2 of which were fatal.
- The Guinness Book of Records stopped registering deep air records due to extremely high mortality rates,
- There's 3 kinds of people: those who get numbers and those who don't.
The assumption isn't that it couldn't have been be a meteor strike, the assumption is that a meteor strike is somewhat less likely than, say, a shark attack.
- Scuba divers were 3% of the shark attacks in 2019, 2 of which were fatal.
- The Guinness Book of Records stopped registering deep air records due to extremely high mortality rates,
- There's 3 kinds of people: those who get numbers and those who don't.
The assumption isn't that it couldn't have been be a meteor strike, the assumption is that a meteor strike is somewhat less likely than, say, a shark attack.
HalcyonDaze
Contributor
As stated earlier, I discussed this with someone who had been at the International Shark Attack File at the time; he's also a tec diver and knew the individual who did the recovery dive. His recollection isn't 100% and I am not going to use direct quotes, but at the time he did not think the plan was adequate for the dive. Nowhere in what's been posted do I see notes of having a descent line with stage/deco bottles or having safety divers. I would be curious to see someone run the numbers on the descent/ascent/deco time and gas consumption for a "bounce dive" on air to 500 ft.
In regards to the camera, there were some dark photos but what they were of was hard to say.
From my own noodling around Google, determining whether wounds are antemortem or postmortem can be problematic (Antemortem – Perimortem – Postmortem.). The researcher I talked to did not recall there being a determination that the bites were antemortem.
Now, could it have been a shark attack? Possibly, but the odds of that are pretty slim. Shark attacks on divers are rare but do happen, and if they were already disoriented or distressed that could have upped the odds. A dual fatality would be extremely rare; in the case of the oceanic whitetip attack referenced near the start of the thread the shark exclusively targeted one diver even as the other was trying to get the victim to the surface. In another case involving a tiger shark a few years back a divemaster sustained glancing leg injuries trying to kick at a shark that was targeting another diver and eventually killed her.
On the other hand, we have a sizable pile of people who have tried to do deep air dives and didn't come back, and at depths of under 250 ft to boot. So I would first run through all the ways they could have died due to physics and physiology catching up to them first, and have possible shark attack off to the side as a complete random chance event.
In regards to the camera, there were some dark photos but what they were of was hard to say.
From my own noodling around Google, determining whether wounds are antemortem or postmortem can be problematic (Antemortem – Perimortem – Postmortem.). The researcher I talked to did not recall there being a determination that the bites were antemortem.
Now, could it have been a shark attack? Possibly, but the odds of that are pretty slim. Shark attacks on divers are rare but do happen, and if they were already disoriented or distressed that could have upped the odds. A dual fatality would be extremely rare; in the case of the oceanic whitetip attack referenced near the start of the thread the shark exclusively targeted one diver even as the other was trying to get the victim to the surface. In another case involving a tiger shark a few years back a divemaster sustained glancing leg injuries trying to kick at a shark that was targeting another diver and eventually killed her.
On the other hand, we have a sizable pile of people who have tried to do deep air dives and didn't come back, and at depths of under 250 ft to boot. So I would first run through all the ways they could have died due to physics and physiology catching up to them first, and have possible shark attack off to the side as a complete random chance event.
Since I read that they determined 292 feet from a camera, I assumed that the diver took a picture of their depth gauge during the descent. So, they could have gone to any depth past that.... They could have hit 500' for all we know.
Bob DBF
Contributor
I would imagine those statics come from the accidents that are reported and the condition the participants are in afterwords. These are usually from personal best deep air bounce dives, which, I believe, are the most dangerous way to make a deep air dive. Since these dives are now more frowned upon than solo ever was, I doubt that anyone doing them successfully would volunteer their experience after an accident.
InTheDrink
Contributor
I’m absolutely not disputing the numbers. Ordinarily I would be 99.99% that this wasn’t a shark issue given that other issues much more likely.
However, the deceased surfacing with shark bites adds plausibility to a shark attack. I’m not saying was as none of us can know but it’s certainly within the boundaries of possibility.
Not know what their actual final depth was obscures this further.
A couple of years ago we had 4 attacks in one month by Longimanus at one location and it wasn’t just one shark. All attacks bar one were superficial. One removed a calf of the divers leg and he was very lucky to get out alive.
This behaviour of the sharks at this location was very unusual.
Point being: just because it’s not usual doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And the fact the deceased had shark bites lends plausibility to that possibility and shouldn’t just be discounted as some terrifying monster. It’s just a subjective possibility.
If their max depth was really just 292ft (big if) and it wasn’t a shark I would look at gas, buddy or kit issues before OxTox or narcosis on the assumption they would have dived deeper than this running up to a dive nearly twice that depth (which truly would have been insanely foolhardy).
150m on air isn’t a plan. It’s a suicide mission.
HalcyonDaze
Contributor
Going by the Global Shark Attack File report posted earlier in this thread (underlining added is mine to address specific questions):
"A boat carrying a large group of divers dropped Jonaitis and Lupold off at a reef wall before taking the rest of the divers for a regular, sanctioned sport dive. It wasn’t known if Lupold and Jonaitis ever reached their desire depth. Photos Lupold had taken of his dive computer showed he reached a depth of 296 feet four minutes into the dive. According to local authorities, the divers were supposed to float a plastic balloon-like marker to the surface when they reached their desired depth, but it was never deployed, and was later found in the vest Lupold was wearing when his body was recovered on Sunday. The dive tank was still on his body but his weight belt was missing, which allowed his body to float to the surface, the Cozumel official said."
So we have them diving without a boat on station, or a descent line, or safety divers and making a descent of about 74 ft per minute. That the max known depth was recorded via a photo of the dive computer suggests it's possible they went deeper than 296, although they either didn't reach their planned max depth or didn't attempt to deploy the SMB.
Other details mentioned were that the accident had occurred on a Friday and the body was found on the surface the following Sunday six miles away from where they went missing. If accurate, that is either a very slow drift of 0.1-0.2 knots in an area of "moderate current" or the body didn't float until some time after death.
The International Shark Attack File record (no association with GSAF) would be more comprehensive, but access is limited to cooperating scientists as it contains confidential items such as autopsy reports, interviews, and photographs.
"A boat carrying a large group of divers dropped Jonaitis and Lupold off at a reef wall before taking the rest of the divers for a regular, sanctioned sport dive. It wasn’t known if Lupold and Jonaitis ever reached their desire depth. Photos Lupold had taken of his dive computer showed he reached a depth of 296 feet four minutes into the dive. According to local authorities, the divers were supposed to float a plastic balloon-like marker to the surface when they reached their desired depth, but it was never deployed, and was later found in the vest Lupold was wearing when his body was recovered on Sunday. The dive tank was still on his body but his weight belt was missing, which allowed his body to float to the surface, the Cozumel official said."
So we have them diving without a boat on station, or a descent line, or safety divers and making a descent of about 74 ft per minute. That the max known depth was recorded via a photo of the dive computer suggests it's possible they went deeper than 296, although they either didn't reach their planned max depth or didn't attempt to deploy the SMB.
Other details mentioned were that the accident had occurred on a Friday and the body was found on the surface the following Sunday six miles away from where they went missing. If accurate, that is either a very slow drift of 0.1-0.2 knots in an area of "moderate current" or the body didn't float until some time after death.
The International Shark Attack File record (no association with GSAF) would be more comprehensive, but access is limited to cooperating scientists as it contains confidential items such as autopsy reports, interviews, and photographs.
InTheDrink
Contributor
Ultimately whether it was a shark or depth, something was likely to go south on a dive planned like this. Don’t need sharks to fix stupid. And likely that’s all we’ll ever know about this dive. It was always unlikely to work out well.
HalcyonDaze
Contributor
Assuming a max depth of 150 meters, they could have hit that after a 7-minute descent at the rate they were supposedly going. That would have left them at a PO2 of 3.36. Evidently they either never got that far or were incapable of deploying their marker. No idea what kind of deco obligation they would have had coming back up the other way.
Deep diving - Wikipedia
Presumably whatever happened was 4-7 minutes into the dive. That's a pretty short window for a shark to observe the divers, approach them, make a decision to attack, and then attack.
Deep diving - Wikipedia
Presumably whatever happened was 4-7 minutes into the dive. That's a pretty short window for a shark to observe the divers, approach them, make a decision to attack, and then attack.
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