Is it time to sink the CESA?

[TMHeimer]

It could be done at a 45 degree angle in OW if no pool available--coming up from 12 feet as discussed. But you'd have to then have access to open water that qualifies as "confined water", and of course that would be impossible in many areas.
I did think of the idea of allowing DMs to do some of the CESAs, but imagine that would get into the area of liability.
There are two different discussions here--
--the problems it can cause the instructor and whether it should be done at all from a student standpoint.

 

[boulderjohn]

I did think of the idea of allowing DMs to do some of the CESAs, but imagine that would get into the area of liability.

They would have to have special training. They are not allowed to do it now. PADI would have to create a training program that would allow assistants to supervise this specific skill. They cannot do it now under standards.

A shop where I used to work stopped using DMs as assistants, telling them that if they wanted to continue assisting in classes, they would have to become assistant instructors. This made classes much more manageable. Since those people saw no reason to stay at that level, they all became instructors. Before long, the "assistants" in the classes were all actually instructors, so the problem was solved. It cost the shop more in terms of employee pay, but it had many benefits, chief of which was efficiency, with more than one person evaluating skill performance at a time.

 

[HBVetera n2312]

I feel that doing the CESAs in the pool have some positive muscle memory benefits in exhaling constantly through the mouthpiece, venting the BCD, checking overhead, etc. I’ve had the CESA headache too, so maybe the pass/ fail should be in the pool at a 45 degree angle then during OW dive 4, a familiarization CESA under the DM/AI/ Instructor supervision would be prudent. Just so new divers get a better feel for it in open water.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, I was just going to suggest that very thing, but thought of it in the shower so you beat me to it. Include the same training that instructors get on CESA in the DM course and allow DMs to sign off on that one skill. Instructor CESA problem solved. Maybe there are other issues besides the existing standards. One result may be that for someone like me who took out the insurance to only assist--would be a good excuse to increase the cost of that-- here it was like $100 cheaper than if you took the whole thing and could teach those few courses (DSD, etc.) and lead dives. But that's a side issue.
I saw a lot of instructors doing CESAs with students. I figure the training can't be all that extensive. Could be wrong.

 

[Raphus]

I was thinking about the cesa issue for days now..
The 45 degree idea is not bad, but doenst solve the issue of the multiple ascends.

I think there are only 2 possible Solutions.

1. More instructors/dms. So only 2 ascends are made per dive.

2. Split the cesa in 2 skills.
The ascend and the oral inflation.
Why does this help?
The ascend could be stopped before reaching the surface or depth, where the pressurechange is big.
So for example: the students do a cesa starting from 10m ending in 4m. Should be enough length to get a feeling about a real cesa, but only 25-30% pressure change instead of 50%.

The oral inflation skill can be done with a very small ascend from 1m to the surface and then oral inflating the bdc.
Of course in a different dive then the cesa.

This way the instructor and the students are safer, while the student still has to whole training experience

 

[HBVetera n2312]

Man I kinda like that idea.....

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The 45 degree idea is not bad, but doenst solve the issue of the multiple ascends

In a pool not nearly as much of an issue.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Keep in mind folks, I have zero skin in this game, as I'm not required to teach it in open water. I am looking at how to teach it that doesn't adversely impact my health, and how to give the appropriate context to students about performing one. However I modify my OW course will of course be submitted to my agency, as I'm writing a document of excruciating detail on what exactly will occur in the course I teach.

 

[TMHeimer]

I was thinking about the cesa issue for days now..
The 45 degree idea is not bad, but doenst solve the issue of the multiple ascends.

I think there are only 2 possible Solutions.

1. More instructors/dms. So only 2 ascends are made per dive.

2. Split the cesa in 2 skills.
The ascend and the oral inflation.
Why does this help?
The ascend could be stopped before reaching the surface or depth, where the pressurechange is big.
So for example: the students do a cesa starting from 10m ending in 4m. Should be enough length to get a feeling about a real cesa, but only 25-30% pressure change instead of 50%.

The oral inflation skill can be done with a very small ascend from 1m to the surface and then oral inflating the bdc.
Of course in a different dive then the cesa.

This way the instructor and the students are safer, while the student still has to whole training experience

Interesting. Cutting the CESA short of the surface (at 4m) may be a good idea. Only problem I can see right away would be awkwardness for the student to just stop mid-water and then reverse to go back down. Guess the instructor could assist. I know that with enough neutral time in the pool, doing that would be easier than it would for the "skills on your knees" crowd, but still may be a bit confusing to the student.

Re the oral inflation-- Well, if I recall correctly that is done as a skill already in the pool. Or maybe as part of the OOA with buddy drill, but it is done somewhere. Maybe that doesn't have to be done also in OW-- it is the same process. Doing this separately in OW would take extra time, as it is currently part of the CESA skill. Not a factor unless it's Nov. in Nova Scotia.

 

[Diving Dubai]

So do I understand correctly that one suffering from a severe larynospasm may be able to exhale but not inhale?

For clarity - I'll say there was no medical diagnosis - it was always assumed that what happened. I think you're right about the being able to exhale - since I'd tried to purge the second reg - I don't recall any resistance to the exhale. All I vividly remember is not being able to inhale - and I'll never forget that feeling of my chest heaving in and out with nothing in my lungs.


THe point I really was trying to convey, that your brain's self preservation instinct kicks in. In my case certainly, but I suspect everyone else too, there's no conscious thought about lung over expansion - you know if you don't get to the surface you're going to drown. But rational thought doesn't happen, it's all instinctive reaction.