Is it time to sink the CESA?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

For clarity - I'll say there was no medical diagnosis - it was always assumed that what happened. I think you're right about the being able to exhale - since I'd tried to purge the second reg - I don't recall any resistance to the exhale. All I vividly remember is not being able to inhale - and I'll never forget that feeling of my chest heaving in and out with nothing in my lungs.


THe point I really was trying to convey, that your brain's self preservation instinct kicks in. In my case certainly, but I suspect everyone else too, there's no conscious thought about lung over expansion - you know if you don't get to the surface you're going to drown. But rational thought doesn't happen, it's all instinctive reaction.

There is the physical and mental aspect of this. The information I received (assuming I understood it correctly) is that the difficulty in exhaling is less than inhaling.

That said, there is the psychological aspect of how an individual may react in which they realize that there is something wrong with them and not their equipment. Not being able to breath is likely to be fear inducing. What the individual does in their flight is critical to their survival. I do not wish to hypothesize further as I am unqualified to do so.

I’m still mulling over how to present the information gleaned from this thread.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I can hopefully answer this and put to bed other people's "Pet theories" since I've actually made a CESA for real

In my case I hadn't run out of air, I had two redundant cylinders, each over 3/4 full - with was rather annoying - I had a Laryngospasm

The symptoms are the same, you can't breath - although in my case I was looking at 2 SPG's mentally saying WTF!

I happened to be a 22m in crystal clear vis of the Red sea - so the surface seemed within touching distance. and at that point had 500+ dives behind me in fairly challenging conditions

Of course you only realise you cannot breathe after the exhale (unlike in training where you prepare yourself)

I did waste a small amount of time by swapping regs (spitting one out putting the other in - automated response) I probably took 10 seconds in all before I fully reacted and headed straight up.

According to my computer my ascent rate was around 20m/min - I don't recall it screaming away - I had more pressing issues. I do (still) remember the clarity of thought - the best way to describe would be for the reader to imagine reading 4 different columns of text, simultaneously and understanding them completely

Your diaphragm is working hard trying to inflate yoru lungs (they can't ) if I experienced any expansion of the gas in my lungs, I certainly didn't feel it.

My focus was on the surface. I do remember thinking it seemed a long way away. I was kicking hard (using dive rite XT's) so using oxygen, again I remember it felt like hard work.

In the end the Laryngospasm clear at approx 10m, my exhale was so violent that my mask flooded. That was when I saw my buddy. She'd seen me fly off, at first thought I'd seen something big, but then her instinct took over - she told me later she's had trouble keeping up with me.
Post dive, in hindsight, I realised I might have done things differently (I wasn't releasing air from my BCD) -

Had I thought about all my training, I'd have ignored it anyway, since my priority was to be on the surface. I suspect most people will do the same. I wasn't concerned with a controlled ascent rate. Not being able to breathe meant I wanted to be at the surface its as simple as that.

Your case looks similar to the two cases occurred to two of my students, about which I wrote some days ago:
Am I too afraid of lung barotrauma? Remedies/Techniques?
Laryngospasm was caused, for both of them, by the reflex triggered by water on neurotransmitters located on the face, around the nose, after sudden mask removal.
What was the cause triggering the laryngospasm in your case?
In both cases occurred to my students the airlock was complete, both expiring and inspiring. Only inserting my finger in their mouth and reaching the epiglottis it was possible to trigger the cough reflex, causing the larynx to open...

 

[Pearlman]

When it comes to beginner divers, it is easy to assume that a wanna-be diver grew-up on the coastline and had frequent regular access to the ocean and beaches to attain some basic proficiency in watermanship that cannot normally by an adult dipping in the ocean for the first time only in adult life. No attempt is made by training agencies to actually acclimatize or gauge a new divers proficiency in the water and it is assumed the student is not just an over-enthusiastic "kid" out of touch with reality about his actual competence to manage himself (or herself) in the water.

I have been living in a landlocked place for the last 15 years or so and I am sure many people are in the same situation. As a person with intermittent and limited access to the Seas, my next training plan to boost my general proficiency is to do a basic Freediving course. Last time I checked out the beginner videos I was left wondering why this is not a prerequisite or integrated into a beginner diving course? The biology and physics about differences regarding holding breath when breathing compressed air in Scuba vs Freediving can be specially hilighted and CESA like maneuvers can be practiced a dozen times in a Freediving course without the Instructors risking barotrauma or other complications. The instructors can even be different and dedicated Freediving teachers leaving the scuba teachers for what they do best. Swimming regularly in a pool all your life is one thing and exposure to the elements in the Ocean with waves and currents is another. Even practicing treading the water will up the confidence level of non-coastal people as they prepare to undertake their first Scuba lessons. For a beginner Freediver who finds he cannot do breath-holds like a champion, even limited 10m dives executed and practiced multiple times over a couple of days for 30 seconds or whatever can be a big confidence booster.

 

[Angelo Farina]

When it comes to beginner divers, it is easy to assume that a wanna-be diver grew-up on the coastline and had frequent regular access to the ocean and beaches to attain some basic proficiency in watermanship that cannot normally by an adult dipping in the ocean for the first time only in adult life. No attempt is made by training agencies to actually acclimatize or gauge a new divers proficiency in the water and it is assumed the student is not just an over-enthusiastic "kid" out of touch with reality about his actual competence to manage himself (or herself) in the water.

I have been living in a landlocked place for the last 15 years or so and I am sure many people are in the same situation. As a person with intermittent and limited access to the sea, my next training plan to boost my general proficiency is to do a basic Freediving course. Last time I checked out the beginner videos I was left wondering why this is not a pre-requisite or integrated for a beginner diving course? The biology and physics about differences regarding holding breath when breathing compressed air in Scuba vs Freediving can be specially hilighted and CESA like maneuvers can be practiced a dozen times in a Freediving course without the Instructors risking barotrauma or other complications. The instructors can even be different and dedicated freediving teachers leaving the scuba teachers for what they do best. Swimming regularly in a pool all your life is one thing and exposure to the elements in the Ocean with waves and currents is another. Even practicing treading the water will up the confidence level of non-coastal people as they prepare to undertake their first Scuba lessons.

I am from a not-coastal town (Parma is more than 100 km from the sea). So great part of my first diving course was done in the swimming pool, and only at the end we went to the sea for the 4 prescribed dives.
But in the pool, for months, the instructor did train us for aquaticity (which means diving without even mask and fins), then on freediving (with fins, mask and snorkel), and then on using the ARO (pure-oxygen CC rebreather). Only after months of this training, after having reached perfect body, breathing and brain control, we were introduced to compressed-air Scuba systems (double tanks, of course, and often with double-hose regs), which later were used in the sea.
All the problems you point out are due to the fact that the "modern" didactical approach removed entirely the part on aquaticity and freediving (and ARO, of course).
Nowadays I think that something similar to the training I received back in 1975 is only available from not-commercial training agencies, such as CMAS or BSAC.

 

[Pearlman]

Nowadays I think that something similar to the training I received back in 1975 is only available from not-commercial training agencies, such as CMAS or BSAC.

Right so I am guessing the consumer/tourist oriented training agencies are concerned that the cost of entry/training will be prohibitive on one part and then keep trying to market and sell more courses over the lifetime of a diver. This market driven behavior is not going to change - everyone needs to survive and make money - So might as
well sell one more Freediving course as a prerequisite course that also tests basic watermanship and qualifies a diver for the first Scuba course.
Adding one more training course to the bouquet of course offerings is not going to impact the marketing budget of these agencies by that much! And its one more product to sell!! However making it compulsory to qualify might improve training quality and possibly contribute to higher accident survivability rates?

I can confidently say that all wanna-be scuba divers are into it for the adventure and would not mind a basic free-diving qualification as well! On those vacation days when you cant dive (financial budget or other reason) might as well improve your snorkeling experience.

 

[jborg]

I can confidently say that all wanna-be scuba divers are into it for the adventure and would not mind a basic free-diving qualification as well! On those vacation days when you cant dive (financial budget or other reason) might as well improve your snorkeling experience.

I grew up on a boat and spent about as much time in the water as on land for the first 15-ish years of my life. However, I never liked being *under* water much, more than a meter or two, and had a distinct fear of overhead (like being under a boat). Freediving was never appealing, rather the opposite. I learned to scuba dive as a grown up, 25 years later. Being able to breathe underwater was, mentally, for me, the step that made it acceptable to *be* underwater. Nowadays I'm happy to do some simple free diving while snorkling, because I've gotten used to being underwater.

If free diving skills were a prereq for scuba I definitely wouldn't be here today.

 

[Edward3c]

Right so I am guessing the consumer/tourist oriented training agencies are concerned that the cost of entry/training will be prohibitive on one part and then keep trying to market and sell more courses over the lifetime of a diver. This market driven behavior is not going to change - everyone needs to survive and make money - So might as
well sell one more Freediving course as a prerequisite course that also tests basic watermanship and qualifies a diver for the first Scuba course.
Adding one more training course to the bouquet of course offerings is not going to impact the marketing budget of these agencies by that much! And its one more product to sell!! However making it compulsory to qualify might improve training quality and possibly contribute to higher accident survivability rates?

I can confidently say that all wanna-be scuba divers are into it for the adventure and would not mind a basic free-diving qualification as well! On those vacation days when you cant dive (financial budget or other reason) might as well improve your snorkeling experience.

From my experience, when someone wants to learn to dive, they don’t want to waste time learning to snorkel. Additionally, they don’t want to spend the extra time or money on snorkelling, when they can go on snorkelling trips without a qualification.

 

[Angelo Farina]

From my experience, when someone wants to learn to dive, they don’t want to waste time learning to snorkel. Additionally, they don’t want to spend the extra time or money on snorkelling, when they can go on snorkelling trips without a qualification.

There was absolutely NO SNORKELLING during my training. It was first "free body" for a couple of months (no fins, mask or snorkel). Then freediving (that is NOT snorkelling, as you keep your breath and dive underwater, while snorkelling you stay at surface and breath through the snorkel).
Of course now the courses are different, even under CMAS: there is an aquaticity course, there is a free diving course, but neither is mandatory before the first OW scuba diving course. Indeed, they are recommended to everyone who has not gained a good free-body aquaticity, nor had practiced free diving before.
I have never seen a snorkelling course. Snorkelling is considered something people can do without specific training.

 

[Diving Dubai]

What was the cause triggering the laryngospasm in your case?

We never figure it out. Chilled relaxing bimble dive - dive 32 of the trip, and I dive weekly at home too - in incredibly challenging and stress inducing currents. Clearly I sucked in a bit of water but there was nothing obvious. .Mouthpiece was tight and in good condition, reg worked perfectly after the event - as I tried it out. and then was No fault found (NFF) on the test bench and stip the week after

One of those things. I highlight the event since few people have a real life occurrence like this, there was no panic on my part, all the way up I was critically thinking and trying to problem solve. But the actual decision to head up, and the mechanics behind that was all instinctive and without conscious thought.

 

[Edward3c]

There was absolutely NO SNORKELLING during my training. It was first "free body" for a couple of months (no fins, mask or snorkel). Then freediving (that is NOT snorkelling, as you keep your breath and dive underwater, while snorkelling you stay at surface and breath through the snorkel).
Of course now the courses are different, even under CMAS: there is an aquaticity course, there is a free diving course, but neither is mandatory before the first OW scuba diving course. Indeed, they are recommended to everyone who has not gained a good free-body aquaticity, nor had practiced free diving before.
I have never seen a snorkelling course. Snorkelling is considered something people can do without specific training.

BSAC used to include snorkel training as part of the old 3rd Class, it got dropped in the learly 1980s.

BSAC still teach snorkelling and have a whole raft of courses, including instructor - see here.