Is dive certification really necessary?

[oly5050user]

The liability with whom?
If a person is self taught and gets equipment and a tank full of air then hurts themselves who get sued?
“Proper teaching system”, that one can be highly debated. To me the term “It’s the instructor, not the agency” reeks of incompetence and corruption. It never should get that bad that an agency like PADI or any of the other ones think they could put full trust into something as unreliable as a human. The AGENCY should be the one doing final testing, not some shady instructor that can hide in a cloak of incompetence and cronyism. PADI should have their own testing facility that you go to for your final testing. You pay your money and you get your card. There would be no more turning in bad instructors once the damage is done and no more “Instructor not agency” crap.
But more to the point, if someone chooses to home school themselves on how to dive locally and they are completely self sufficient, can this be done safely and successfully?

What do you call someone who graduates last out of medical school? Doctor, same applies to instructors. To certify instructors PADI has a system akin to what you promote, a examiner from headquarters qualifies a person to be an instructor unlike some agencies that a local course director who may know the individual personally and may have something to gain making someone a instructor.

 

[oly5050user]

As a PADI instructor I have refused to certify several students that would not master the appropriate skills as required. I have had complaints filed with PADI over it but because I documented all of the issues correctly the complaint were discarded after they investigated. You do not show that you can perform the appropriate skills or learn the required knowledge you shall not pass! I have gone out of my way many times to help students that are struggling with great success, but they have to want to learn the skills and not just expect to pay and pass! There is a big difference between seeing something in a book and having a skilled teacher actually demonstrate the skills and assist you with the technique. I also have refused to take students out in conditions that I did not feel were appropriate for teaching Open Water Students. I have also seen another instructor take those same students out and certify them despite the conditions. I do not believe they ever dove in Florida again, the rush was they were taking a vacation to the Caribbean and wanted to complete the certification before they left instead of doing the referral at their destination, which I believe was twice our price for the referral! They had the money and were just too cheap! Fortunately that shop is out of business and that Instructor is no longer teaching but unfortunately there are still too many that are willing to cut corners. I quit the shop shortly after that incident and stopped working full time in the industry. The problem with your idea is the liability, without a proper teaching system with set learning goals and progression they would never be able to get insured and would probably get sued successfully after the first death for millions of dollars.

Same here, I have refused to certify a student who came to me on a referral. Went as far as telling him to “get out of my ocean “ after the first ow training dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

When I sat for my oral examination for my masters in English literature, one of the examining professors looked at my transcript and noted that I had taken a Ph.D level class in Donne and Jonson, two writers in the era of Shakespeare. He was obviously about to check on the profundity of my learning on those two writers, so before he asked, I gave him the real story. In that class, we had spent one week examining some really obscure works by Donne, and we had not read a single one of his more famous and more typical works. We had spent one week doing the same with Jonson. We had then spent the rest of the semester examining a writing "fad" that began in 1592 and ended when it was banned in 1603, a fad in which Donne and Jonson had very briefly dabbled. I would bet that the professors examining me had never heard of most of the writers we studied. Some were anonymous. The purpose of our course was clearly to assist the professor in the research he was doing on that topic for a planned publication. The next semester, the same professor taught the same syllabus under the course name "The 17th century."

In 1970, education researcher John Goodlad published a study that had been intended to compare the effectiveness of different curricular approaches. His conclusion was that no true comparison was possible, because he found that when the teachers closed the doors of their classrooms, they taught whatever they damned well pleased rather than the program they were supposed to be implementing.

That is what happens in colleges, high schools, and elementary schools across the nation. We should not be surprised that it happens in scuba instruction as well. My niece is NAUI certified after a 2 hour pool session and one OW dive to 10 feet. According to this history of NAUI, in its early years, NAUI instructors sent in the names of students when they registered for the class, and NAUI immediately sent the certification cards so that the instructors could hand them to the students when the class was over. NAUI leadership knew many students got their cards without completing the course, and they knew some got them without even taking the course, but they did not know how to deal with that problem.

So this problem has been around forever, and it is not confined to scuba.

 

[boulderjohn]

To certify instructors PADI has a system akin to what you promote, a examiner from headquarters qualifies a person to be an instructor unlike some agencies that a local course director who may know the individual personally and may have something to gain making someone a instructor.

A few years ago I had a long conversation with a SSI Course Director who lamented the fact that SSI was going to such a system. He much preferred it the way it was, when he could ask the instructor candidate what his plans were and only teach what he thought was necessary for those plans. Under the new system, he was going to have to teach the whole damn program to everyone.

 

[AfterDark]

I did AOW immediately after OW, and I am glad I did. My AOW instructor took me well past what I had learned in OW, and so with a grand total of 9 dives, I was a much better diver than when I had 4 dives. When I then went on and dived on my own for the next few years, I was practicing and perfecting the better skills I had learned in that AOW class.

In contrast, I started skiing as an adult. I got the basics down, but I could not afford lessons. I just practiced and practiced my basic skill level for years, and in so doing I thoroughly ingrained really bad habits that I was never able to eradicate fully when I was older and could afford lessons.

Those skills should have been done in OW IMO. Either a diver is ready to dive recreational safely and comfortably or they're not. Two classes is for $$$$

 

[boulderjohn]

As for Zero to Hero....

I had a conversation about this with a man who had been the director of a major scuba operation in Florida, one that had people applying to be instructors regularly. He told me that when he encountered his first zero to hero instructor, he was surprised--the guy was really good. After a few more, he realized that there was a real benefit to having your first 100-150 dives done under intense supervision working on specific goals rather than just out on your own.

 

[boulderjohn]

Those skills should have been done in OW IMO. Either a diver is ready to dive recreational safely and comfortably or they're not. Two classes is for $$$$

I did not say I was incompetent after OW; I just said I was much better after AOW.

You do realize your statement says that once someone completes the 4 dives of OW instruction, they should have reached the zenith of scuba skill, don't you?

 

[oly5050user]

I find that I've learned and RETAINED more from reading and self study, than I did from my cert course.

I think there is a lot of value in @Eric Sedletzky 's idea has a lot of value. I look at the price of an OW class here (about $450)..... I see a market where they could do testing only for $150 and be a moneymaker for the shop, and a money saver for the student. Question becomes, who is the prospective student. A shop wouldn't rent to Joe Snuffy with no cert card.... so Joe Snuffy needs at least a friend with spare gear/a certification to get gear and tanks to train with. So that implies an available mentor to reiterate the critical safety stuff (don't hold your breath, don't ascend too fast, etc.).

I have a number of friends that I would happily lend gear, and time in my pool, to if this certification path became an option.

Respectfully,

James

Problem as I see it is there is no”chain of evidence” that a individual actually knows what they are doing. In a actual certification course there are quizzes, exams, skill development sessions that are all documented. All fun and games until someone gets hurt and whoever issued a certification gets sued and loses all assets they own.

 

[oly5050user]

A few years ago I had a long conversation with a SSI Course Director who lamented the fact that SSI was going to such a system. He much preferred it the way it was, when he could ask the instructor candidate what his plans were and only teach what he thought was necessary for those plans. Under the new system, he was going to have to teach the whole damn program to everyone.

Ha ha, I did not name the agency, you did.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

I did AOW immediately after OW, and I am glad I did. My AOW instructor took me well past what I had learned in OW, and so with a grand total of 9 dives, I was a much better diver than when I had 4 dives. When I then went on and dived on my own for the next few years, I was practicing and perfecting the better skills I had learned in that AOW class.

In contrast, I started skiing as an adult. I got the basics down, but I could not afford lessons. I just practiced and practiced my basic skill level for years, and in so doing I thoroughly ingrained really bad habits that I was never able to eradicate fully when I was older and could afford lessons.

Can I go out on a limb and say that your experience was the exception and not the norm? Kudos to the instructor, but that has not been what I've seen or experienced in my limited time here. Every LDS I walk into is pushing some new class or cert. It's not about making a better diver, it's about making more money.