Who "Fails" Open Water Scuba Certification and why

[halocline]

Tha analogy has escaped you. The comparison was to the plumber who works until the leak is fixed and the instructor who works until the student succeeds.

Sure, but if the plumber spends twice the anticipated time fixing your leaks, the bill is twice as high. I don't think many OW scuba instructors are getting paid extra for students that need more time.

Considering what plumbers get per hour, I suspect some of them don't mind AT ALL spending every last minute needed to get the job done.

 

[boulderjohn]

Sure, but if the plumber spends twice the anticipated time fixing your leaks, the bill is twice as high. I don't think many OW scuba instructors are getting paid extra for students that need more time.

Considering what plumbers get per hour, I suspect some of them don't mind AT ALL spending every last minute needed to get the job done.

That is certainly an inequity, but it does not change the analogy.

There is no reason it has to be this way, BTW. There is nothing stopping a dive operation from imposing reasonable rules that require extra pay for extra time. In my several of my tech classes I knew that there was a reasonable range for me to take extra time, after which I would be paying more.

 

[boulderjohn]

As an additional thought to what I just wrote, I felt I almost always had ample time in what I was given by the shop to get everyone through the class. The confined water sessions include a number of free swimming sessions of unspecified length. If someone in the class was taking longer than expected with skills, those sessions might end up being a little shorter, but all the skills would be covered. There were few exceptions in those skills sessions, and in those few exceptions, the problems were obvious to the student. In some cases, they decided on their own that scuba was not for them. In a few other cases, we referred the student to a private session, where, yes, they paid more.

Most of the people who did not pass classes I taught never made it to the pool. They were kinds, almost always age 13, who had blown off the home instruction and shown up in the classroom with no preparation. They got sent home, and I don't know if they rescheduled for another time.

 

[boulderjohn]

One final thought--does everyone realize that 10-year olds can be certified by almost all agencies? That means that the course materiais are written at the 5th grade level. That means that the required skills can be and are mastered by 10-year olds. If you have a high failure rate teaching primarily adults a course that can be mastered by a 10-year old, I would say you are a piss-poor instructor.

 

[lowwall]

Fifth graders know how to listen in class.

 

[Scott]

I am curious about this one. I wasn't aware one could fail based on one's actions outside of the class. Was it that you felt the student was showing inherently poor judgement that couldn't be remediated through instruction? Or that they violated the statement you sign that you won't exceed your training, deny uncertified divers use of equipment, etc.? Or something else? I'm not questioning the decision, just trying to understand the rationale.

It’s been a few years, but you’re pretty much on point.
I just remember his attitude was in the lines of “I don’t give a”

The shop had a learning agreement and there was language in the rental agreement that addressed this.

 

[TMHeimer]

One final thought--does everyone realize that 10-year olds can be certified by almost all agencies? That means that the course materiais are written at the 5th grade level. That means that the required skills can be and are mastered by 10-year olds. If you have a high failure rate teaching primarily adults a course that can be mastered by a 10-year old, I would say you are a piss-poor instructor.

As many know I've always felt 10 years old is way too young. Since you pointed out that the manuals are written at the 5th grade reading level, I tried to think back to 1965 and if I would have slugged through the PADI OW manual I have now at that age. "Heck no, I'm gunna play some basketball"........

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think 10 yo is too young personally.

When I DM’d and helped with classes I never saw anyone actually get failed. I saw several people not do the ocean dives on our coast because they were getting referrals to vacation spots. We had one woman who we nicknamed the flailer. She flailed so bad that she was like a jig underwater. Several of us worked really hard to get her to stop undulating and doing this crazy arm body leg thing but we couldn’t get her under control. However, amidst all her bird flapping and body contortions she some how passed all the skills in the pool and ocean and the instructor passed her. It still blows my mind.
The mask off breathing seemed to be the other make it break it skill.
When we had someone with problems with that skill it was my job to take them aside and work with them. I had a system down that I could have the worst one doing it like a pro in about 10 minutes.
With so many, just a little extra work on a problem skill will be the factor of barely doing it or doing it with confidence.
I’ve also seen great swimmers who were a wreck underwater and didn’t like it. I’ve seen poor swimmers with terrible technique who were very comfortable underwater.
The instructor I worked for was more into making sure the tread and hands out of the water tread were done without fail.

 

[Angelo Farina]

In a mastery learning program, there should be no issue of failing at the end of the class, because all problems have been corrected along the way. In a scuba class, by the time the student reaches the OW checkout dives and has to clear a mask, he or she has done it many times successfully already, and that is even if the student was successful on each occasion. If not, the student got the extra help needed to be able to be successful.

According to whose definition of best? If you understand instructional theory, you will realize that the worst instruction possible happens in colleges and universities. There you will find almost no effort being made to help students succeed. The idea there is to present information and then test to see who got it despite the miserable instructional techniques.

I taught in an experimental program in the Colorado School of Mines, one the the best engineering schools in nation. I was part of a team of instructional experts brought in to try to improve their struggling writing program. When we tried to introduce mastery learning techniques, we were rebuffed. They wanted nothing to do with that sort of stuff, and the program ended. I am going to reproduce their argument below, and I swear to you there is no exaggeration. I am sure they would agree with what I am writing in the way I am writing it.

1. If we used those methods, many more students would be successful in reaching the standards of the class.
2. If many more students reached the standards of the class, we would have too many students getting good grades, and it would look like we were being too easy.
3. It is important to see if students can succeed and get good grades without good instruction, because that tells prospective employers who the true self-directed learners are.
4. It is very important that a good percentage of these highly qualified students fail the class, even if their work met all standards, so that we can look like we have very high standards. There is therefore no good reason to provide extra help to struggling students, because they help maintain a good failure rate.

So, is that your idea of ideal instruction? To have as many people fail as possible so you look tough?

I am a professor at the University of Parma, and I can confirm this entirely. Academic training started more than 1000 years ago, and tradition here is considered something untouchable. We are still using the same teaching and evaluation methods which were in use 1000 years ago (my university was founded in A.D. 920).
Attempting to introduce "modern" or "flexible" teaching (and evaluation) methods is simply impossible in institutions which hold to the same principles since such a long time...
Despite the obsolete methods employed, indeed, many academic institutions hire excellent teachers, who attempt to cover with additional personal effort the problems built in the institutional didactical approach. Hence, despite the questionable methods, usually the level of our graduated is excellent, and they are highly requested all around the world.
But this comes to a price, a number of possible other good or excellent students are lost during the 5-years course, resulting in Italy having one of lowest number of graduated per 1000 inhabitants of the world.

 

[mmerriman]

I've never had anyone "fail". I've had guys that needed to be in a setting away from their work buddies to finish. I've had people drop out because it wasn't for them. I've people that just never finished. I've had people (mainly young boys) that needed more time to mature before finishing.