Multiple deaths diving off NC coast May 10, 2020?

[Rose Robinson]

That is not correct, either.

My dad learned to dive when he was 14 (so, roughly 1959). From a friend of his dad's. Not a formal class that produced a C card. I'm originally from Tallahassee, FL, where my dad grew up. Once he learned to dive, he did a lot of diving in the north FL blackwater rivers and caves. He brought up a lot of artifacts and fossils from those rivers. Some of which are on display in museums there or in the care of the Smithsonian Natural History museum. All, without any training that produced a C card.

When he was in the Navy, he was assigned to a ship and took his own scuba gear with him on the ship. When his Chief saw his gear, he said "you're a scuba diver? Good. I have some jobs for you."

After I got tech training, I was pondering my dad's experience and the fact that he doesn't (to this day) have any C cards, so I can't take him out on a commercial charter boat. I asked him "how deep did you ever go when doing stuff your Chief assigned you?" He told me the deepest he ever dived, for an assigned task, was about 200'. This was back in the mid-60s. I asked him, "when you did that, you had to have done decompression stops on the way up. Did the Navy give you any dive training to learn to do that?" His answer "nope. I was not a Navy Diver. They didn't give me any dive training." I asked, "so, how do you learn how to do the required decompression?" His answer, in typical fashion for my dad, "I got the Navy diving manual, and I read it."

I understand, having said that, not a recommended methodology. the fact that your dear father lived to tell the story is something resembling a miracle.

Rose.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Stuart,

Certification means they took a course, read, comprehended the theory, successfully answered all the chapter questions, successfully passed the exam, successfully passed all the underwater drills, successfully understood the need to be properly outfitted for ''deep'' dives. ''That's defendable in court"!

Regardless of this particular set of terrible circumstances, proper training, certification or lack thereof, could very well be the ''root cause reason'' for making it back to the boat ladder, or not.

Please forgive me, I don't mean to be critical, but what kind of an instructor believes that not being ''certified'' is a good idea.

When I interview a candidate for employment, the first thing on my ''want'' list is to review credentials, the diploma does not give me an intelligence reading of the applicant, practical application will sort through that, but it certainly does give me a reading that there is a ''foundation'', especially if it's accompanied by high mark report cards.

There is a wooden shipwreck in Ontario Canada, which by the way, I hope to dive one day, called the Arabia, It lies at the bottom of Georgian Bay, basically the same depth as the U-352. More divers have died on the Arabia than any other single ship wreck anywhere, including the Andrea Doria. When you look back at some of the investigation reports, one thing becomes glaringly clear, a lot of the victims, should never have been on the wreck in the first place, and that's your 119 feet.

Pretty basic stuff, no ticky/no washy.

Rose.

Rose, this accident subforum is supposed to be no blame and for our learning only.

There are many divers on Scubaboard who have been diving for decades, some of them from before there was such a thing as certification or formal training.

What I've learned from this thread, is what I've always known. Don't lose track of your remaining gas (and practicing for emergencies is a good idea too).

 

[Marie13]

There is a wooden shipwreck in Ontario Canada, which by the way, I hope to dive one day, called the Arabia, It lies at the bottom of Georgian Bay, basically the same depth as the U-352. More divers have died on the Arabia than any other single ship wreck anywhere, including the Andrea Doria. When you look back at some of the investigation reports, one thing becomes glaringly clear, a lot of the victims, should never have been on the wreck in the first place, and that's your 119 feet.
.

I dove the Arabia twice on the same trip last year. Awesome wreck. Yes, it’s cold and deep. 41F on my dives. For us regular Great Lakes divers, that’s nothing unusual. For me, the Forest City (also in Georgian Bay) required more attention since it’s on an angle. The stern is at 150ft. I went to 90ft. It’s like diving an escalator and was sort of discombobulating to me.

Just how many divers have died on the Arabia?

Divers Den has a minimum number of cold water dives and dives period listed on their website before they will let you on regular charters for the Arabia and Forest City, but I don’t know how much they’re enforced since I was on a private charter.

I dove the Arabia with a HP100 and slinging a 40.

 

[Ayisha]

...Just how many divers have died on the Arabia?...

I believe there have been 13 or 14 diver fatalities on the Arabia, IIRC. There were incident reports for each of them on the Ontario Underwater Council website, but the OUC no longer does incident reports, so they have all been removed.

Most of them ended up running out of air. It is of course always cold on the Arabia, but the conditions can vary. It can be amazingly and deceptively calm and easy, but sometimes very rough and challenging. Some of the victims freeflowed and ran out of air; one got separated from his AOW instructor, got lost, and was found out of air on the bottom; in a mother and son dual fatality, they were seen trying to put a tank back in the cam band at depth, and both ran out of gas; others may have gotten lost looking for the ascent line (though it's not an overhead) or miscalculated their gas requirements to get back safely or lost track of their remaining gas.

The first time I decided I was ready to dive the Arabia in 2004 (due to it's reputation), the early owners of Divers Den checked our log books and their requirements at that time were a minimum of 10 similar deep, cold dives, and the captain of course had the last call. Our LDS owner gave me and a few others a very conservative dive plan to follow complete with a map. Do not penetrate, even if it looks easy. Make sure you're proficient with freeflows. Be back at the block when you reach 1800 psi. Resist the urge to overstay. Hang a tank or carry a pony bottle. I followed his guidance and still remember. No matter how many times I have dived on the Arabia, I gave her my utmost attention and respect.

 

[Marie13]

Of course, I gave the Arabia dives the respect it’s due, I didn’t mean to imply I didn’t, but it’s an “easier” dive than, say, the Cedarville in the Straits of Mackinac, mostly due to size and that it’s upright.

There’s nothing left to penetrate on the Arabia that I saw.

 

[Ayisha]

Of course, I gave the Arabia dives the respect it’s due, I didn’t mean to imply I didn’t, but it’s an “easier” dive than, say, the Cedarville in the Straits of Mackinac, mostly due to size and that it’s upright.

There’s nothing left to penetrate on the Arabia that I saw.

I wasn't implying that you weren't respectful of her. Just in general that it seems deceptively simple when conditions are good, but her reputation precedes it. I wouldn't doubt that her reputation increases the anxiety for some, especially if anything starts to go wrong.

It had already become unstable at that time, but it was still regularly penetrated. It fell apart more and more over the years.

 

[Jared0425]

@Rose Robinson The Arabia has had 10 fatalities on her. Most occured in the early days of diving in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Bob DBF]

Please forgive me, I don't mean to be critical, but what kind of an instructor believes that not being ''certified'' is a good idea.

Somehow you equate certified and worries about liability with whether a diver is qualified to do a deep dive. An instructor should be the first one that understands that a Deep card requires a very minimal understanding of deep diving

I understand, having said that, not a recommended methodology. the fact that your dear father lived to tell the story is something resembling a miracle.

There are many divers on Scubaboard who have been diving for decades, some of them from before there was such a thing as certification or formal training.

I'm one of those old farts that learned SCUBA out of a book, there was formal training if you were near enough to that training. I didn't have a dive buddy until I had 20 or 30 dives. I started hanging out with more experienced divers and learned deep and deco from them and the Navy dive manual. All this before I had an SPG, the most useful tool in SCUBA I have have ever seen. I don't know if any of those guys had certs, but they knew how to dive, and I'm here today because of their training, not some new cert.

I got an OW cert 17 years after I started diving, and would still been a career OW diver like my buddy Bruce, but events overtook me, that's a story told elsewhere.

What I've learned from this thread, is what I've always known. Don't lose track of your remaining gas (and practicing for emergencies is a good idea too).

More or less since I started using an SPG, I clip it to my left chest D-ring so it is visible at a glance. As one of my mentors said, " ya can't breathe water, kid, pay attention to your air", so I do.


As an aside, back then the normal way to end a dive was to run out of gas. There were j-valves, but there were a lot of post valves, no reserve and the predecessor to the k-valve, so when you ran out, you were out. No one was apprehensive about an OOA because it happened so often, and a lot of training addressed the issue, in case it was a supprise. Oh yeah, this was before the BC.

My point is that there is a lot more stress, and a lot less training, surrounding an OOA now than when it I taught myself or others were trained. There is a difference when confronted by a OOA, for any reason, between the verge panic and here we go again. Anybody can dive until TSHTF.

 

[Ayisha]

@Rose Robinson The Arabia has had 10 fatalities on her. Most occured in the early days of diving in the 70s and 80s.

Jared, this article states 13 fatalities:
https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/robert-osborne/diving-in-tobermory-or-wa_b_4040048.html

This article states "more than 14" fatalities:
Accident Analysis

 

[Rose Robinson]

That is not correct, either.

My dad learned to dive when he was 14 (so, roughly 1959). From a friend of his dad's. Not a formal class that produced a C card. I'm originally from Tallahassee, FL, where my dad grew up. Once he learned to dive, he did a lot of diving in the north FL blackwater rivers and caves. He brought up a lot of artifacts and fossils from those rivers. Some of which are on display in museums there or in the care of the Smithsonian Natural History museum. All, without any training that produced a C card.

When he was in the Navy, he was assigned to a ship and took his own scuba gear with him on the ship. When his Chief saw his gear, he said "you're a scuba diver? Good. I have some jobs for you."

After I got tech training, I was pondering my dad's experience and the fact that he doesn't (to this day) have any C cards, so I can't take him out on a commercial charter boat. I asked him "how deep did you ever go when doing stuff your Chief assigned you?" He told me the deepest he ever dived, for an assigned task, was about 200'. This was back in the mid-60s. I asked him, "when you did that, you had to have done decompression stops on the way up. Did the Navy give you any dive training to learn to do that?" His answer "nope. I was not a Navy Diver. They didn't give me any dive training." I asked, "so, how do you learn how to do the required decompression?" His answer, in typical fashion for my dad, "I got the Navy diving manual, and I read it."

Stuart,

You didn't answer my question,

Regarding post # 256, and forgetting all about military situations, and only recreational scuba diving, what is your recommended alternative to instruction, certification and practical application?

Rose.