NTSB CONCEPTION HEARING - THIS TUESDAY @ 10AM

[Michael3826]

$100 a day. I paid better than most boats as 1. Living in Key West is expensive and 2. I wanted someone with quality who would do the job and not fall asleep. The real question is, where would they bunk down? We were out of bunks with a full crew onboard.

Most watches can/should be done in shifts. 2100-2300, 2300-0100, 0100-300,0300-0500.Then each night your shift changes. If I started the first shift 2100-2300 then I would be responsible for the 2300 the next night, then the 0100 shift the next. You don’t technically need more crew to have a night watch. Or more bunks. Throw the captains in there to do just an hour watch each and you’re covered from 2100-0700. Set up those shifts at the start of the trip and have a schedule so that everyone knows the expectations to follow. Having one person to be roving the entire night alone sounds rough. Work in shifts and everyone gets some decent sleep. And maybe a nap during the day. Then if you have the rotation set up then individuals won’t be too pissed about always getting the crappy shift.

That’s how it’s generally done In the maritime industry. I didn’t understand how that didn’t transfer over to scuba liveaboards. but after hearing the ntsb board meeting it make’s sense now. They didn’t follow rules ever and that became normal for them. “Normalcy of deviance.” They never practiced safely and lied to everyone. They never got in trouble or maybe never caught. The only way they would it would have been known that they worked without a watch was if someone reported it. Without evidence how can they get punished? So why would they ever follow rules?

The need of a roving watch is plainly written as a requirement in their COI. COI has 3 requirements to be a coast guard certified vessel. That’s what the owner, captain, and crew knew. It was written and posted in the galley behind the counter of the galley. Tucked away from the normal roving areas of the passengers. It gets renewed every 5 years.

The conception, truth, and vision may have passed safety inspection but every time they operated without a fire watch should be considered a failure. In a given year that’s at least 52 failures if they have one trip a week. Does a vessel/company with safety 50 failures in a year sound safe now?

In ntsb interviews captains said they refused to do night watch because it’s below their pay grade. Brings up the question if you are required to have a second captain on board when a shift exceeds 12 hours, then what is the purpose of that second captain if they aren’t working during the hours the first captain is asleep?

 

[Wookie]

you previously said you personally lost a crewmember and 2 friends in that fire. So not the crew member of the conception but a passenger on conception who was crew for you? Or were your friends not crew and passengers of the conception fire?
I hadn’t heard of any of them, besides the crew member, working on boats. Aside from the 2 kids, a hairdresser, and a bartender, the rest seemed to have established professional careers.
Are you in Florida? I don’t recall any of them being from there either.

Neil Baltz was a divemaster on both Fling and Spree when we were in Texas, He carried a Large Boat Diving Supervisor card with my name on it. He continued to crew the Fling after we left for good. Andrew Fritz was a client, he was on my very first tech trip in Texas. His wife Adrian was an FWC fish nerd in Florida before she went to Antarctica. Fish nerds were my business.

 

[Wookie]

Most watches can/should be done in shifts. 2100-2300, 2300-0100, 0100-300,0300-0500.Then each night your shift changes. If I started the first shift 2100-2300 then I would be responsible for the 2300 the next night, then the 0100 shift the next. You don’t technically need more crew to have a night watch. Or more bunks. Throw the captains in there to do just an hour watch each and you’re covered from 2100-0700. Set up those shifts at the start of the trip and have a schedule so that everyone knows the expectations to follow. Having one person to be roving the entire night alone sounds rough. Work in shifts and everyone gets some decent sleep. And maybe a nap during the day. Then if you have the rotation set up then individuals won’t be too pissed about always getting the crappy shift.

That’s how it’s generally done In the maritime industry. I didn’t understand how that didn’t transfer over to scuba liveaboards. but after hearing the ntsb board meeting it make’s sense now. They didn’t follow rules ever and that became normal for them. “Normalcy of deviance.” They never practiced safely and lied to everyone. They never got in trouble or maybe never caught. The only way they would it would have been known that they worked without a watch was if someone reported it. Without evidence how can they get punished? So why would they ever follow rules?

The need of a roving watch is plainly written as a requirement in their COI. COI has 3 requirements to be a coast guard certified vessel. That’s what the owner, captain, and crew knew. It was written and posted in the galley behind the counter of the galley. Tucked away from the normal roving areas of the passengers. It gets renewed every 5 years.

The conception, truth, and vision may have passed safety inspection but every time they operated without a fire watch should be considered a failure. In a given year that’s at least 52 failures if they have one trip a week. Does a vessel/company with safety 50 failures in a year sound safe now?

In ntsb interviews captains said they refused to do night watch because it’s below their pay grade. Brings up the question if you are required to have a second captain on board when a shift exceeds 12 hours, then what is the purpose of that second captain if they aren’t working during the hours the first captain is asleep?

And that's how we convinced the CG that we didn't need a roving watch. We had a 24 hour captain, with visual access to every space on the vessel from the pilot house. Which was located above the crew quarters and no doors away from the passenger quarters and right next to the battery charging station.

Which crewmember would you have man the 01-03? The cook who went down at 2100 and back up at 0430? The divemaster who went down at 2300 and back up at 0530? Crew rest is an issue. Getting a liveaboard crew 12 hours of rest, with 8 hours continuous is a real issue when the compressors have to be fired up to warm up at 0600 and tank fills arent complete until 2300. Sure, the mate could do that except the days the boat is underway until first dive at 0730. The Stewardess who is up from 0600 to 2200 with a break during the day? You have easy solutions to very complex problems. As I say, we manned a 24 hour watch anyway, regardless of the status of the vessel (underway, moored, or anchored), but every other liveaboard I've ever worked or paid to be on or spoke to crewmembers on didn't move much at night and the "mate" helped the deck crew during the day.

 

[Michael3826]

From the NTSB board meeting available on YouTube atMinute 20:30 Mr. Joseph Panagiotou states, “first crew member to get to the main deck... He went down the port side walkway and arrived at the salon entrance. Where he observed fire.... Realizing there was nothing he could do from the main entrance way he headed to the bow is the vessel."
That crew member walked past a fire hose twice.

I recall reading in deckhand Milton French’s interview that there’s a fire hose on the port side and the starboard side walkways just before turning the corner to get to the salon entrance. He said only the port hose had the on/off valve.

Milton said he was trying to get the most forward window of the galley open. Sims was on the ground after breaking his leg. Jerry was on the bridge making the mayday call. So oneOf two crew members who may have gone past the hose twice are Cullen, the second captain or Mikey who has worked on the boat in the galley before.

 

[Michael3826]

Neil Baltz was a divemaster on both Fling and Spree when we were in Texas, He carried a Large Boat Diving Supervisor card with my name on it. He continued to crew the Fling after we left for good. Andrew Fritz was a client, he was on my very first tech trip in Texas. His wife Adrian was an FWC fish nerd in Florida before she went to Antarctica. Fish nerds were my business.

Patricia, Neal’s partner, had shoes, jacket, light, and a backpack. She was woken up, got ready to go and wanted to be rescued. She wasn’t the only one. No shoes or other items mentioned in the reports for Neal, Adrian, or Andrew.

 

[Wookie]

From the NTSB board meeting available on YouTube atMinute 20:30 Mr. Joseph Panagiotou states, “first crew member to get to the main deck... He went down the port side walkway and arrived at the salon entrance. Where he observed fire.... Realizing there was nothing he could do from the main entrance way he headed to the bow is the vessel."
That crew member walked past a fire hose twice.

I recall reading in deckhand Milton French’s interview that there’s a fire hose on the port side and the starboard side walkways just before turning the corner to get to the salon entrance. He said only the port hose had the on/off valve.

Milton said he was trying to get the most forward window of the galley open. Sims was on the ground after breaking his leg. Jerry was on the bridge making the mayday call. So oneOf two crew members who may have gone past the hose twice are Cullen, the second captain or Mikey who has worked on the boat in the galley before.

But if you don't know and never practiced faking out the hose, starting the pump, charging the hose, aiming the fog at the heat, etc. etc. etc, you don't know, nor would a fire hose be your first instinct. That's why I have to take Advanced Firefighting every renewal now instead of once ever. The CG wants to dress my old wore-out ass in turnouts and an SCBA and drag a firehose through a burn house, figuring that if I stand the stress in the burn house, I'll manage to survive a shipboard fire.

Except I get one more pass due to COVID.

I was in COI inspection doing drills one year. My inspector told my wife (lead deckhand) and me to stay in the wheelhouse until she came and got me. The stewardess was the only other crewmember, but as she was stewards department, she didn't need to be trained. Suddenly, I heard the fire pump start and catch prime, and then the outside of the boat was covered in wet. All 4 of us burst our buttons with pride that the stewardess knew enough to drag out a hose, start the pump, hear it prime, open the valve, and flow water all by herself. She is about 5'2" and 90 lbs. Although her job in a drill was to muster the passengers and help them with lifejackets, she had seen enough drills to go through the steps to get water out of a hose. I can't say she would have been effective, but more effective than walking past a hose.

It's important to note that licenses less than 500 GRT do not have to attend Advanced Firefighting, and if they only have national licenses, they won't even attend basic firefighting. And STCW only requires competency with a fire extinguisher.

I work with a crew now that is only required to have national licenses. Only I have advanced FF, the captain has been to basic, none of the other crewmembers are trained at all.

 

[Rick Brant]

What do you suggest they do? Die?
They had no access to fire fighting equipment and the boat was ablaze.
What would have you done? Never judge peoples reactions to life or death scenarios. You have no idea how you would of reacted with the same scenario.

I'm not a captain of a vessel that carries other people, so you are right, I have no idea. There was no firefighting gear on the second boat? What about a bucket brigade? From the outside the crew had the best knowledge of the exit route. The report describes a captain and crew escaping the boat as rapidly as possible -- I'm sorry that does not make sense to me.

 

[kelemvor]

Sounds to me like maybe the rule should be that there be a night watch person who does not have any responsibilities during the day so they can sleep all day and watch all night. Or some variation other than picking some random crew member and waking them up early or whatever the current plan is. Obviously the current system isn't sufficient.

Maybe there's some better automation that can be put in place these days... There's obvious changes that could be made to charging/electrical, but fire management is a different bowl of noodles.

 

[Gareth J]

We all should know, that the more regularly you practice, and the more familiar you are with the equipment. The more successful you will when under pressure to perform a task.

If you never get to practice, have never handled the equipment, your performance will suffer.
Even the simple thing of a piece of equipment being different from the equipment you are familiar with will impact on your speed and performance. Disdain at the top, filters down.

 

[Wookie]

Sounds to me like maybe the rule should be that there be a night watch person who does not have any responsibilities during the day so they can sleep all day and watch all night. Or some variation other than picking some random crew member and waking them up early or whatever the current plan is. Obviously the current system isn't sufficient.

Maybe there's some better automation that can be put in place these days... There's obvious changes that could be made to charging/electrical, but fire management is a different bowl of noodles.

I don't have any problem with Michael's suggestions of using a person to do things other than their primary job. Except in this case. The coast guard requires a crewmember to be off 12 hours a day, with 8 of those hours uninterrupted. On every non dive boat I've ever worked on, a deckhand is up 24/7. They may keep a rounds sheet, they may snooz in the chair next to the navigator, they may take a wheel watch, they may mop the galley. Point is, they aren't in their beds. The difference on a dive boat is that every person except for the night navigator has passenger support duties whenever passengers are awake. Usually the navigation team works 12/12 watches, and a deckhand stays awake with them.