NTSB CONCEPTION HEARING - THIS TUESDAY @ 10AM

[scubadada]

Ah, well, the IMO has come up with a method to do just this. All licensed mariners were required at one point to possess a TWIC card, a Transportation Workers Identification Credential. That card is issued by TSA, after completing a background check and security clearance. I have one, every licensed mariner has one. They cost the mariner $135 every 5 years. Readers are made for these TWICs, they are a chip encoded card, just like a chip credit card. The reader may be at the facility gate, it may be at the entrance to the engineroom, it may be at the gangway to the ship, it may be at the turnstile between the parking lot and the pier. It just depends on where in the IMO you fall where security is required. On SOLAS vessels, there is a TWIC reader on the door to the wheelhouse and the door to the engineering spaces.

At one time, not long after 9/11, all US passenger boats were going to have TWIC readers installed. Then the lobbying firms got involved, and now the only place a TWIC card is required in getting into a port where foreign-flagged ships dock.

But, the system is there and available for a watchman to insert his TWIC card every time (s)he makes rounds and a record is kept of what spaces were checked.

But it costs money.

Thank you Frank, what an easy solution, too bad the ball has been dropped at a variety of levels.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

So here's a thought for our next tangent:
The Roving Patrolperson is making the nightly rounds, comes out of the engine room at 2AM to discover that a fire has just started (let's say 30-60 seconds) in the salon area. What should he/she do and in what order: Alert the crew, alert the passengers, try to put out the fire, something else???

Before your frame your Perfect Answer That No One Can Dispute, you might want to take a look at this video from the Oak Ridge (Tenn) Fire Department about dealing with fires and flashover. Three minutes is the magic number. You might also want to listen to what advice the fire chief has at the end:

 

[HalcyonDaze]

So here's a thought for our next tangent:
The Roving Patrolperson is making the nightly rounds, comes out of the engine room at 2AM to discover that a fire has just started (let's say 30-60 seconds) in the salon area. What should he/she do and in what order: Alert the crew, alert the passengers, put out the fire, something else.

Before your frame your Perfect Answer That No One Can Dispute, you might want to take a look at this video from the Oak Ridge (Tenn) Fire Department about dealing with fires and flashover. Three minutes is the magic number. You might also want to listen to what advice the fire chief has at the end:

One would hope that a) there are smoke/heat detectors and b) there's a vessel-wide alarm that can be pulled to jolt everyone out of the racks. I would agree with the fire chief's advice that the first priority is starting the evacuation.

I didn't sit and watch the whole NTSB presentation, but as far as I'm aware a) when the crew was alerted to the fire, the forward part of the salon was not ablaze and b) there's no indication any passengers made it up the forward stairs - is that correct?

 

[Ayisha]

I read some of the survivor statements from the RS1 accident. (It may have even been here on SB.) They stated that because the Conception fire was so fresh in everyone's minds, they had not only discussed it, but specifically asked about a overnight watchperson and were assured that there would be one every night. Yet when the fire broke out, there was no watchperson on duty. The entire crew was asleep. So it really goes back to the points that have been made here as well as made during the NTSB hearing that a lot of what we rely on for safety is human-dependent and therefore is only as effective/strong/safe as the humans we rely on to implement those safety protocols.

Not sure why my post was quoted since I was referring to safety *after* the Red Sea Aggressor 1 tragedy, not before. Otherwise the following sentence "Perhaps too little, too late for some" would make no sense.

Of course it's human-dependent. That's why I don't necessarily hold Aggressor fully responsible for what happened on a franchisee boat. Anyone can shine during an inspection/check-in if they know how.

Would I want to stay on a liveaboard with the captain or remaining crew of the Conception or Red Sea Aggressor 1? Not a chance with the unsafe culture that has been exposed.

 

[chris kippax]

The marine fire fighting training I received, the instructor made it very clear that shipboard fires were in a whole different league to house fires.
If your house is on fire you can walk out the door and walk down the street and watch it burn, that's a bit hard on a boat.

I did my training in Tasmania, if you went in the water without exposure protection you would be dead not too long after. Evacuation to a muster point/ lifeboat area or such would be the number one priority

 

[KevinNM]

One would hope that a) there are smoke/heat detectors and b) there's a vessel-wide alarm that can be pulled to jolt everyone out of the racks. I would agree with the fire chief's advice that the first priority is starting the evacuation.

I didn't sit and watch the whole NTSB presentation, but as far as I'm aware a) when the crew was alerted to the fire, the forward part of the salon was not ablaze and b) there's no indication any passengers made it up the forward stairs - is that correct?

It's possible to set things up so that dismounting a fire extinguisher or starting the fire pump will trigger the fire alarms all across the boat. Same way I've seen the life rings on ships hooked to the MOB alarms. The safest assumption is that anyone accessing emergency equipment is doing it because there IS an emergency.

In this case you need to alert everyone of the fire and start firefighting immediately. You don't have a few minutes, because in a few minutes the fire will be beyond the ability of a crew without bunker gear and SCBA to fight. And it's a long swim home in cold water.

It's unclear, due to the total loss of all the upper decks, capsizing and sinking of the vessel, where the passengers were in the boat. It's very clear that none made it out of the boat alive.

 

[Wookie]

Always sound the general alarm first. Ships have general alarms of some sort, even silly T boats. That rouses both crew and passengers. Then place the passengers in a place of safety. The safest place is, of course, with the life jackets on ready to disembark into the life boats/FRBs/shark feeders. Saving the ship is the very last priority, although it may be nice to have a ride home. First action, save the passengers. There is no higher standard of duty.

 

[Rooster59]

So, roving night watchman is pivotal in our safety. How do we document the activities of a night watchman? I don't think it is that difficult in modern times, an electronic record of the watchman's route. Come on now, this is simple.

I stayed for a while in something like a dorm, there was a night watch that would make the rounds continually every night. There were QR barcodes pasted at all the checkpoints throughout every floor. The night watch scanned the QR codes with an iPad mini as they made their rounds. They were scanned in an order and had to be done within a proscribed time period, not too fast and not too slow. The supervisor got an automated alert if everything went haywire.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

. . . as far as I'm aware a) when the crew was alerted to the fire, the forward part of the salon was not ablaze and b) there's no indication any passengers made it up the forward stairs - is that correct?

I think pretty much the entire interior of the salon was engulfed when the crew got on the main deck. Correct that there's no testimony or anything else to indicate that anyone made it up the stirs (or out the escape hatch).

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Not sure why my post was quoted since I was referring to safety *after* the Red Sea Aggressor 1 tragedy, not before. Otherwise the following sentence "Perhaps too little, too late for some" would make no sense.

It didn't read that way to me. Regardless . . .

Would I want to stay on a liveaboard with the captain or remaining crew of the Conception or Red Sea Aggressor 1? Not a chance with the unsafe culture that has been exposed.

The "unsafe culture" is certainly not limited to those two crews and is more prevalent in the dive boat industry than perhaps we'd like to acknowledge. So the real question is: How do you determine if you're comfortable with the safety culture of a crew or boat BEFORE you begin your trip? (And don't forget that the RS1 passengers were assured there was a night watch.)