Advanced penetration of the Spiegel Grove Wreck

[Addison Snyder]

I think the real issue illustrated by the thread is the blatant hubris of OP. With every suggestion from someone with 10x the experience, it's often an "ok, I guess you guys are 'barely' right, but I got this" sort of attitude. Learn some humility. I once told my cavern instructor from a few years ago "wow, so you're making around 20 an hour (in reality a lot less) to train me not to die? That's a hell of a bargain!". I'm something of a cheapskate with equipment, lodging, etc. but knowledge and training are invaluable. It's usually hard to put a price on someone telling you why a secondary tie-off exists and then applying that to subtle changes in how you place it. Like with a resume and 'years experience', were those 500 dives really 500 dives worth of experience? Or just one experience 500 times? Rules and training materials have been paid for with the blood of others. Pay attention and give yourself a good look in the mirror. You need more than a handbook on how to do something, you have a personality issue that will screw up your day eventually.

 

[Zef]

I think the real issue illustrated by the thread is the blatant hubris of OP. With every suggestion from someone with 10x the experience, it's often an "ok, I guess you guys are 'barely' right, but I got this" sort of attitude. Learn some humility. I once told my cavern instructor from a few years ago "wow, so you're making around 20 an hour (in reality a lot less) to train me not to die? That's a hell of a bargain!". I'm something of a cheapskate with equipment, lodging, etc. but knowledge and training are invaluable. It's usually hard to put a price on someone telling you why a secondary tie-off exists and then applying that to subtle changes in how you place it. Like with a resume and 'years experience', were those 500 dives really 500 dives worth of experience? Or just one experience 500 times? Rules and training materials have been paid for with the blood of others. Pay attention and give yourself a good look in the mirror. You need more than a handbook on how to do something, you have a personality issue that will screw up your day eventually.

What you are observing and articulating is often the result when someone is looking for vindication cloaked as a request for advice.

-Z

 

[Manatee Diver]

I understand that. I prefer to go to the sand. No issue. I'm trying to find out where the OP mentioned 32%.

It is in the profile he posted on like page 8.

Based on the profile he set his computer to calculate mod based on a PPO2 of 1.6.

 

[tridacna]

It is in the profile he posted on like page 8.

Based on the profile he set his computer to calculate mod based on a PPO2 of 1.6.

I see it in the profile now. Pretty obvious. Duh.

 

[Open Ocean Diver]

I understand that. I prefer to go to the sand. No issue. I'm trying to find out where the OP mentioned 32%.

Post 82 in his profile chart... he didn’t mention it.

 

[jadairiii]

I'm not sure which part of your dive is more concerning, the fact that you are planning it as a NDL dive, the complete lack of adequate gas for the team, the lack of experience doing a dive like this by all parties, or keeping your dive plan a secret from the dive boat...or you comparing the Speigel to diving the Jay Scutti.

You asked a question, you have almost 11 pages of "No, dont do it". I think you should reevaluate your dive plan.

But if you are still thinking, after 11 pages, that you know better than all of the others, take a tip from Donald Rumsfeld....it is the things you dont know you dont know that will kill you.....

 

[Altamira]

Yes, I had thought of that and you drove the point home. In the video I took 2 years ago you can see how easily it gets silted out. If that line got hung up I'd have to cut myself free in low visibility.



Having done this dive before I know I'll have plenty of gas. Especially given that we had to swim all the way from the stern mooring ball.



Here ya go! I edited the original video after I filmed it so it's not continuous but it gives you a general idea.

There is a big difference between being led by a qualified/trained DM/Instructor and you, or another untrained diver, leading this type of dive. Yes, you might get away with successfully diving your plan, but highly qualified divers in this thread are telling you not to do it because it is too dangerous at your training/skill level. The SG is not going anywhere, so why not do the training suggested by those that are far more knowledgeable on the subject. A sign of maturity is accepting and following the advice given by the experts rather that following our own opinion. Do you really want to put your, and friends/dive buddies, lives or safety at risk because you don't want to put in the time and work to be properly trained? I don't know you, but I can assure you that over confidence can kill.

 

[boulderjohn]

When I was an OW instructor with about 400 dives, I was pretty confident in my abilities. I had never really seen anyone who seemed to be much better than I as a diver, except for some DMs I had followed in resort areas. But were they really that much better? I didn't think so.

So I started training for tech diving. Oh, man! I was in for a shock. I had no idea until then what a frigging beginner I really was. I had no idea how much skill was required for those kinds of dives. It was absolutely humiliating for me. My subsequent diving also bought me into contact with divers I had never met before doing dives I had never seen before. More eye opening stuff.

So now, many years later, I am a tech instructor, and my opinion of my place on the diving spectrum is significantly lower than it was so many years ago. I have seen divers who are better than I will ever be, and I know what makes them better. I have a pretty good sense of my limits. I know there are dives well beyond my ability, and I will not try them.

 

[wedivebc]

I just want to ask those who are saying swim through limited penetration is OK ask yourself if this was a cave in Florida instead of a wreck. What kind of reception do you think a group of untrained poorly equipped flutter kicking divers kicking up the silt (as witnessed in the video) would receive from real cave divers? Anyone leading a dive in a cavern zone MUST be a minimum DM, wearing appropriate cave gear (double tanks) and be full cave trained. This plan goes against all precepts of overhead diving.

 

[Zef]

Anyone leading a dive in a cavern zone MUST be a minimum DM, wearing appropriate cave gear (double tanks) and be full cave trained. This plan goes against all precepts of overhead diving.

I am not arguing against prudence and common sense, but does this rule exist because access to the dive sites are on private land and thus controlled and regulated?

-Z