NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Is cave diving history from the 1960s to present day taught and tested as part of Intro to Cave?

I have found that many instructors do not know the history.

 

[The Chairman]

I can show you the email exchange after I was banned for something I said about Pathfindr IN pm

Then your exchange was reported. Anything you send electronically is never fully under your control again. We simply don't invade PMs.

 

[Superlyte27]

Then your exchange was reported. Anything you send electronically is never fully under your control again. We simply don't invade PMs.

The point is, you guys do have the power to do so, and have done so. I was told at the time that everything I was doing was being monitored on SB, reported or not. Like I said, those conversations between me and your staff still show on my side, so if you wanted to freshen up on the history, it’s still there. Water under the bridge now. I really embrace the Darwinism approach now and barely care what other instructors or agencies do. All my students are still alive.

And Jim that’s not a slam on you, as I believe you were not teaching or responsible that day.

 

[kensuf]

Is cave diving history from the 1960s to present day taught and tested as part of Intro to Cave?

Yes and no and it depends. I talk about accident analysis and fatalities, poor quality equipment (namely lights), but don't talk about using clorox bottles for BCDs (yes, cave divers did that), or that it was cave divers that developed the octopus and submersible pressure gauge. I probably should emphasize more that cave diving was nearly outlawed in Florida in the early 70s.

I definitely discuss the loss of site access when talking about landowner relations (I used to use Hornsby, now I have added Diepolder into the list).

When discussing conservation I also have an open discussion on water quality issues, including agricultural interests (mostly focusing on dairy cattle and the support farms w/pivot irrigation) vs water bottling plants and how cave divers can help protect the groundwater by providing survey data, collecting water samples, etc. It makes it pretty easy to point water quality concerns out, as you have to drive by several pivot irrigation systems and dairy farms to get from High Springs to Peacock, and you drive by a water bottling plant to get to Ginnie. I love having the water quality discussion because everyone usually comes into it with the mindset of "bottled water companies are bad" but I like to point out that Dannon and I have at least one shared interest (clean water), and that maybe cave divers could align with water bottle companies on some issues even though I really hate single use plastics and find that the way some major water bottling companies conduct their business very distasteful. Discussing the economics of Shenandoah Dairy, how they're one of the largest employers in Suwannee County even though they have a slurry pit that sits literally right on top of the Falmoth/Cathedral cave system (we have the radio located corrected survey data), makes for difficult choices in rural communities.

My formal lecture (PPT) is currently over 6 hours, the topics of landowner relations and conservation are covered during diving days -- "when you're driving back to High Springs, look at the farms on either side of the road" type discussions that aren't really "formal" but are covered.

I don't know if anyone else is teaching this stuff.

 

[kensuf]

I have found that many instructors do not know the history.

Sad, but true.

 

[ofg-1]

I don't think the CDS does a poor or dangerous job of training cave divers because the CDS doesn't train them, instructors do. .

You do understand that you can say the same thing about NAUI, IANTD, TDI, GUE, all of them? Even PADI uses instructors. I don't see your point. If you are trying to say that there are variations in instructor quality, you can say the same thing about NAUI,IANTD, TDI, even GUE. And PADI, wide variation.

I don't understand why you think that conservation and instruction are two exclusive activities, and why any agency cannot promote both.

Look, I will not disagree that there are problems with the CDS that need attention. Where I have an issue is you guys (not picking on you rddvet) that are willing to stand back and throw stones without being willing to invest your time and energy to actually improve things.

And Dom, If the people that treated you so poorly over the conference are still on the board, they should resign, or at a minimum be voted out. It is inexcusable to treat your volunteers in that manner, at a minimum they should be embarrassed.. The Catch-22, you cannot vote them out if you are not a member.

.

 

[Superlyte27]

I definitely discuss the loss of site access when talking about landowner relations (I used to use Hornsby, now I have added Diepolder into the list).

FDW!

 

[Superlyte27]

I don't understand why you think that conservation and instruction are two exclusive activities, and why any agency cannot promote both.

Look, I will not disagree that there are problems with the CDS that need attention. Where I have an issue is you guys (not picking on you rddvet) that are willing to stand back and throw stones without being willing to invest your time and energy to actually improve things.

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I’m not sure why people think they need to be exclusive. They can be great at both. They’re just not.

Also, nothing is going to change without a massive regime change. The powers that be hold on to the cds like it’s their rare and fragile flower that no one else can hold. Sadly, they suck at cultivating it, and their vise like grip is not allowing it to grow, instead that grip is killing it.

But hey, “it’s my flower and I’ll kill it if I want to”. They think they’re immune to what happened to the NACD.

Bright people with great intentions, some on this board, reading this thread have joined the cds to bring about positive worthwhile change. Months later they understand the writing on the wall and leave in frustration, just like Dominick. The list is huge.

Fresh ideas by new people. That’s what you need. Good luck.

 

[rddvet]

You do understand that you can say the same thing about NAUI, IANTD, TDI, GUE, all of them? Even PADI uses instructors. I don't see your point. If you are trying to say that there are variations in instructor quality, you can say the same thing about NAUI,IANTD, TDI, even GUE. And PADI, wide variation.

I don't understand why you think that conservation and instruction are two exclusive activities, and why any agency cannot promote both.

Look, I will not disagree that there are problems with the CDS that need attention. Where I have an issue is you guys (not picking on you rddvet) that are willing to stand back and throw stones without being willing to invest your time and energy to actually improve things.

And Dom, If the people that treated you so poorly over the conference are still on the board, they should resign, or at a minimum be voted out. It is inexcusable to treat your volunteers in that manner, at a minimum they should be embarrassed.. The Catch-22, you cannot vote them out if you are not a member.

.

If you re-ready my post I did acknowledge similar things happen with other agencies. I never denied that. I will very strongly state that you need to take GUE out of that mix. You can definitely get bad GUE instruction, but there is oversight where there is not in the CDS and as a whole, you can be fairly well guaranteed if you refer someone for GUE cave instruction they will probably get good instruction. That is not true of the CDS or many other agencies. If I told someone "go get a CDS cert card" there's no way to tell if they'll get good instruction or not. And unfortunately I see alot of crappy CDS instructors' students and there are a few instructors the agency should have a come to jesus talk with due to their poor student quality. But it doesn't happen because they've got big names and have been instructors for ages.

I don't want to take the time or energy to get involved because I have issues with some of the names within the CDS, and I also am very busy and don't have the time. I have two friends who were board members over the years. Both regretted their choice to try and help. I take their warning seriously and have no interest in volunteering. There are influential CDS members reading this, but it probably will never make it to a board discussion. Airing our grievances here should have a positive outcome on the board if people actually took these complaints seriously. I literally had 15-20 conversations via email and phone with 3 administrators/board members about my renewal issues. It took 3 months to get any answer or resolution other than I get a free membership. The first two board members didn't even have a clue as to what the issues with the renewal process were. Adam finally did but had no solution. I was told by two of them that they would discuss my issues and the issues of others at the next BOD meeting. It wasn't discussed. Joining to board isn't going to fix anything unless you wipe it clean and start over.

 

[rddvet]

What I find funny is the mid to later 90's has always been considered the heydey for cave certifications, and we probably had more cave divers than now. Back then we the cornflakes at Ginnie, there was silt on the floor at OG, Peacock didn't have hand prints and fin marks in large conduit passage, the clay in LR didn't have deep gouges etc etc. Many people have pointed out that with the advent of the for profit agencies entering the sport, these problems have grown. No matter who it is,.the caves are suffering from lack of quality of cave divers. I remember the survey I did for a UWS article on cave conservation years ago, and the one common denominator was student's "cave conservation" lecture with entry level training was either nonexistent or barely enough to register for so many agencies. A basic problem is the average duration that people stay in cave diving is 3 years, so they really don't see the damage over time,but the "tourist" caves are really showing a lot of damage.

That is a huge stretch to come up with that assumption. Since the mid-90s the internet and social media has blown up. Cave diving is all over the internet and people have easy access to it. That then brings new or more people to the sport. New people not properly trained cause damage. To say that it's all due to new agencies is a huge stretch.