Instructors: teaching neutrally buoyant

[The Chairman]

Would you anticipate any entanglement scenarios where flipping over like this wouldn't be the easiest way to do it?

No. You'll clear and entanglements in front of you, then flip over where you are able to clear what's on top pretty easily. Most of the time, it's the tank neck that snags stuff anyway.

Of course, this is one of the times that being able to kick backward is a good thing. I was assisting a zero to DM class many years ago and the lead instructor was a well-known diver. We were on the deck of the Speigle Grove and he was doing a pretty frog kick. He then broke into a flutter and then a hard flutter. About that time I had swum up to him and cut the single piece of mono that had been caught by his tank valve. Vrooooooooom! At which point, he settled back into a frog kick. On the surface, he remarked on the surging currents which caused me to snicker. He asked why I had done so, and I told him what had happened. He turned it into a "lesson for life" for the students. It's my opinion that if he had reversed for 10 feet, he would have found the offending line. However, it was obvious he hadn't come to the conclusion that he was indeed tangled yet.

 

[boulderjohn]

Have you tried one giant blast? If your mask fits well this should work every time--well there may be a trickle left in there.
PADI standards experts correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a student can pass the mask clearing skill even if it takes 10 exhales, as long as the water gets out. Anyway, I've heard instructors say that. If true, that puzzles me.
I had a student who needed many blows to complete it, but she was also exhaling through her mouth at the same time (saying she was a "mouth breather") until we finally got that fixed.

There is no number because numbers are usually inappropriate to performance evaluation.The official descriptor is "performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level." !0 attempts would fall absurdly short of this.

Assessment of student performance is done by comparing the observed performance to benchmark performances. Evaluators are calibrated to identify benchmark performances during the instructor training process, during which they see a variety of acceptable and unacceptable performances and learn how to correct the unacceptable performances.

During this process, for example, instructor candidates should learn that "one giant blast" is not an efficient way to clear a mask; it is a mistake that should be corrected. A "giant blast" of air explodes out the mask, leaving water behind. Using a more gentle, continuous exhalation should take it out easily in one breath. Another reason students need multiple breaths is that the face is not perpendicular to the floor, resulting in water being trapped in the lower levels of the mask because it cannot flow down the cheek properly.

 

[TMHeimer]

There is no number because numbers are usually inappropriate to performance evaluation.The official descriptor is "performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level." !0 attempts would fall absurdly short of this.

Assessment of student performance is done by comparing the observed performance to benchmark performances. Evaluators are calibrated to identify benchmark performances during the instructor training process, during which they see a variety of accep[table and unacceptable performances and learn how to correct the unacceptable performances.

During this process, for example, instructor candidates should learn that "one giant blast" is not an efficient way to clear a mask; it is a mistake that should be corrected. A "giant blast" of air explodes out the mask, leaving water behind. Using a more gentle, continuous exhalation should take it out easily in one breath. Another reason students need multiple breaths is that the face is not perpendicular to the floor, resulting in was being trapped in the lower levels of the mask because it cannot flow down the cheek properly.

Thanks for the good details--my poor choice of words-- "giant blast". One "normal blow" should clear it.
How many blows would be the limit of acceptability in your opinion? I agree 10 is way too many.
If the student's face is not perpendicular to the floor, resulting in say, 2-3 breaths (or 4) to clear it, is that acceptable to get the skill checked off? Of course either way, then you would have to adjust the face angle so it's done properly, no?

 

[TMHeimer]

You can only do a pivot if your trim is horrid.

Again, kneeling, lying, or having your fin tips on the bottom is a horrible example. You think that your students will know "when" that will be appropriate, and it really never is.

I was helping an instructor do his first guided night dive. He had 3 students, himself and his SO. There were three classes on that boat and we were at the front. So, the other two classes splashed and I was the first of our group. Imagine my surprise to see everyone in the water at that point STANDING on the bottom. Some were on sand, but others were on coral. The two instructors were waving their arms at the direction each was to go. That was cool, because I could avoid them now.

None of the divers in our group touched the bottom. Why? I was setting the example and if they got too close, I signaled for them to rise a bit. I made the symbol for them to follow me, and we were off on a wonderful dive. By the end of our dive, the ocean was truly dark and all the nocturnals were out or coming out. Of particular interest to me was the number of sea biscuits that had come out of the sand and were now easy to see on the bottom. I picked one up carefully, as they are fragile, and first showed it to our group and then I showed it to the other two groups. Then I put it in the very same spot I had taken it.

On the boat, one of the instructors came up to me and was concerned that I had "fondled" marine life. Rly? You were standing on them at the beginning of the dive, and you're worried about me using one as a teaching tool? I pointed that out as carefully as I could and then answered some questions that some of the other divers had since few had ever seen one. My point was that just because you don't see life on the bottom, doesn't mean it's not there. The sand is alive and should be respected.

Another anecdote. I had taught two high school students to scuba so they could take a reef ecology class during their senior year. I went on their first dive and their instructor was trying to get them to kneel Everyone but my girls were overweighted and had no problem. The girls were confused and so did all of their work horizontal, a few inches above the coral. Man, I was proud. The instructor asked me why it was so challenging for my girls to kneel and I told him that they are taught to never touch the bottom. I then asked him how well they did? His words were "They were surprisingly stable but they should really learn how to kneel". Wow. they're teaching a course on reef ecology and they want them to kneel on it???

So no, what might be obvious to you is not to them, just as what is obvious to me, is not so much to you. Don't set the bar higher... set it a bit more neutral.

These are great stories. I particularly like the last one about "they should really learn how to kneel".
I tend to come across as not in agreement with the neutral idea. That's certainly not true. I do wonder about some of the examples that have been given over time on these threads-- about divers having to rectify all the problems caused by having learned on their knees, and in some cases how long that takes. And some of these stories are from now experienced instructors.
I can easily see (and have said) how new divers emerging from a NB taught course are way better. But how long should it take to get used to being neutrally buoyant diving on your own? My only point has ever been that I don't think buoyancy is rocket science. I don't think having learned how to do a fin pivot in 2005 hurt me. Within just a few dives (10?) I was hovering without thinking about it and doing things like swimming back to shore within 2-3 feet of the surface all the way, and descending from the surface fast by completely emptying my BC and putting the right amount back in to abruptly slow down 2 feet from the bottom to start going horizontally (without touching bottom). Maybe regular diving right after OW, or comfortability in water prior to the course contributed to that. Maybe it just varies with the individual.

 

[MichaelMc]

Maybe it just varies with the individual.

You were a diving prodigy God . All students are not gods.

Some grasp only what is placed directly in front of them many many times.
Most benefit from our placing directly in front of them the thing we want them to grasp, and not other things.
Most benefit from practicing a few times the thing we want them to grasp, and not other things.

Best to give them all the best shot we can in the time we have.

 

[Ayisha]

Found it! This is how long it takes to demo the skill so that students don't get intimidated by the skill. Coupled with a good briefing of the skill on the surface.

That's a good one, with Faisal, I believe. Now there seems to be more emphasis on not dropping the face to flood or replace, but keeping the eyes looking forward. He only dropped his face momentarily, so still pretty good. He keeps his face straight to clear, rather than tipping back, so that's great.
In the previous video, tipping the head back and/or coming out of trim to clear the mask is definitely not ideal.

I learned the latter first, although not too dramatic, and was glad to learn the more refined way.

 

[Coztick]

Clearly, our prescuba swimming experience varies and plays the biggest part in immediate buoyancy comprehension.
Heck, I knew to equalize frequently and that I was completely neutral at 10 ft. with mostly empty lungs at 6 or 7yrs old. As an adult, scuba certification was the easiest, most enjoyable course I'd ever taken.
Some students have never swam underwater, I'm sure. I'm betting scuba instructors see more diversity in student ability than most!

 

[pauldw]

This week I noticed that the local SDI shop was teaching an "Advanced Buoyancy" class, and it wasn't very expensive, and I didn't have any other diving planned for months. So, despite my thinking that specialty classes are often a waste of time, I took it. And despite some people out there probably thinking that diving in a swimming pool isn't real diving, I found that a few hours of doing nothing but focusing on weighting, neutral buoyancy, trim, breathing, and kicking properly (that was an addition to the class, I believe, that we asked for) was very helpful. I was thinking that maybe OW classes should add some hours of practice to go over that, but I guess that those instructors who are covering being neutral from the beginning of an OW class are getting it taught.

 

[TMHeimer]

This week I noticed that the local SDI shop was teaching an "Advanced Buoyancy" class, and it wasn't very expensive, and I didn't have any other diving planned for months. So, despite my thinking that specialty classes are often a waste of time, I took it. And despite some people out there probably thinking that diving in a swimming pool isn't real diving, I found that a few hours of doing nothing but focusing on weighting, neutral buoyancy, trim, breathing, and kicking properly (that was an addition to the class, I believe, that we asked for) was very helpful. I was thinking that maybe OW classes should add some hours of practice to go over that, but I guess that those instructors who are covering being neutral from the beginning of an OW class are getting it taught.

Yes, this is a great idea.
Coztick points out the diversity of student ability. Along those lines, I've always found it odd when someone with very little "water" backround and possibly can't properly swim decides to take scuba. But they do.

The extra hours you suggest just spending time in the pool would of course be great. It would also raise the price (and length) of the OW course, which would be a deterrent to some in today's "get it fast and cheap" world.
But the extra pool time would be like doing those first few post-OW dives on your own, but doing them with an instructor and nailing down your buoyancy. I saw this to a point the last year I worked.
There SHOULDN'T have to be any time spent on weighting-- you do a proper weight check and that's what-- 5 minutes?
Trim- yeah a little time on that, but again, once it's done it's done unless you change equipment. Same thing with weighting unless you gain or lose a lot of body weight. Breathing? You breathe slowly, pretty much naturally.
Kicking? If you haven't done the basic forward kick on your own before the OW course, you should take swim lessons. Don't bend knees (much, anyway), move legs up & down. I saw a student doing the "bicycle" kick for the first time, and I honestly thought he was trying to do something fancy to show off. I just assumed everyone knew how to KICK!

MichaelMc--Agree on everything except me being a diving prodigy God (don't know how to do the "winky" face).
I think what it is more like, is I was maybe typical of most beginning scuba students back in the decades way before I took it in '05. My guess is back then most people did in fact have a lot of water experience before thinking about scuba, whereas today some folks see an ad sign in front of an LDS and just walk in figuring to give this scuba thing a try. PADI and others have long said that the idea is to open it up to everyone. But everyone isn't necessarily ready "water"-wise.

One job I had as an assistant was to monitor the 200 yard swim test. This is how I saw it--
Class of 8:
-- 2 had proper strokes and nailed it easily.
-- 2 had such poor swimming ability I shook my head.
-- the remaining 4 made it OK (maybe a couple coughing up a lung) but had obviously never been taught the proper way to swim.
Now, we all know the discussions of swimming vs. scuba (so let's avoid that), but I use this to show what I think has happened to OW courses since way before my scuba years. I would think back then, almost all of them would've nailed the test easily with a proper stroke. None would ever have needed to work on how to do a straight forward kick while on scuba. To tie it into this thread, I doubt any would have had anything but very minor problems to overcome had they been taught on their knees (they were...).

MichaelMc--Your post correctly points out the different ways people learn things. Something educators have long studied.
My point is not about how people process and comprehend new ideas, but about what (water) experience they may have before attempting something like scuba. If you have a good amount of that kind of experience it's not gunna make too much difference how the subject matter (basic skills) is presented.
I've never done any skiing, but I imagine you do a lot of the bunny hills first before the big downhill. Scuba is the big downhill.

 

[pauldw]

Kicking? If you haven't done the basic forward kick on your own before the OW course, you should take swim lessons. Don't bend knees (much, anyway), move legs up & down.

Well, this being an SDI shop, his idea of proper body position was with bent knees, so that set us to learning the frog kick.