Question regarding neutral buoyancy

[boulderjohn]

I just completed the latest PADI quarterly webinar which features a variety of updates. One of the topics for this one is the new Divemaster E-learning materials. All skills shown in the videos are done neutrally buoyant.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I just completed the latest PADI quarterly webinar which features a variety of updates. One of the topics for this one is the new Divemaster E-learning materials. All skills shown in the videos are done neutrally buoyant.

Not relevant to the OP

 

[TMHeimer]

This is a joke, right? Or just an indication of really poor open water training?

New divers have to develop situational awareness from scratch. When you overweight them, they have to add gas to their BCD to compensate. As they are not aware of ascending slightly, that extra gas also expands, exacerbating the increase in buoyancy force pushing them towards the surface.

Most people don't drop weight as time goes on as they don't do continued weight checks. They don't know what a proper weight check is.

Yes. It is the fault of the instructor to not do a proper weight check and then to purposely overweight students. It is the student's fault for not noticing this has happened since a proper weight check is explained step by step in the OW manual (at least in my 2005 one).
I don't believe the instructor I had did a weight check at the ocean. It was a long time ago, but I guess I figured it out.

 

[napDiver]

@wetb4igetinthewater

I think the standard new ow diver is poorly trained via padi. My cousins had been recently cert. I spent the first 2 dives dropping their weight, redoing weight check, teaching getting neutral, even teaching them to get in a certain position to dump air effectively.

I agree with your points except that if you take a diver from 0-20 dives to 100+ dives. They will be able to drop weight atleast a 1 lb or two. Saw this constantly at dm training (over 60 divers in 3 months) in thailand where everyone dove 2x a day for 2-3 months. No wetsuit, so loss of exposure protection bouyancy wasnt the culprit. Comfort with greater breathing control is the only factor I could think of.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@wetb4igetinthewater

I think the standard new ow diver is poorly trained via padi. My cousins had been recently cert. I spent the first 2 dives dropping their weight, redoing weight check, teaching getting neutral, even teaching them to get in a certain position to dump air effectively.

I agree with your points except that if you take a diver from 0-20 dives to 100+ dives. They will be able to drop weight atleast a 1 lb or two. Saw this constantly at dm training (over 60 divers in 3 months) in thailand where everyone dove 2x a day for 2-3 months. No wetsuit, so loss of exposure protection bouyancy wasnt the culprit. Comfort with greater breathing control is the only factor I could think of.

It isn't just PADI. But mainstream agencies overall.

Never been to Thailand, but in my area (Puget Sound), I see divers with many dives still grossly overweighted. Heck, I was still overweighted until I took GUE fundies (380 dives), and I was a PADI IDC Staff Instructor by that time (inactive now). I dramatically changed how I taught open water and broke away completely from the training I had received earlier from mainstream agencies. I'll agree that there is potential for new divers to shed some weight (we need a lot here) but most are still grossly overweighted (again, my observation in my area). When the water is warm enough that no exposure protection is necessary, then "oops, I forgot my weights and oh, I can still dive" is one way they learn that they don't need so much weight.

I'm actually working on a blog series on how I teach NB/T in open water. Just a couple more pics and I'm submitting the final draft to my agency. Initial draft was well received.

We just have to weight divers properly from the start. There's a good reason why proper weighting was in DAN's 2016 report which had a list of ten changes they'd like to see.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Doesn’t help that PADI teaches buoyancy as a seated Buddha position. Ridiculous. When In real life diving is this appropriate? No where. Should be starting with fin pivot then next exercise is horizontal neutral buoyancy. And it doesn’t help that PADI teaches breath deep for efficiency. Put an new or relatively new diver in 15-20 feet of water and they are all over the place.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Doesn’t help that PADI teaches buoyancy as a seated Buddha position. Ridiculous. When In real life diving is this appropriate? No where. Should be starting with fin pivot then next exercise is horizontal neutral buoyancy.

Again, this isn't just PADI, but the industry overall.

It is because CDs/ITs don't know how to teach weight distribution (a part of proper weighting). I've seen a video from a particular platinum CD who is sculling like mad to stay horizontal while demoing skills.

We should not be surprised at Buddha hovers. They may be BS, but they are firmly ingrained in teaching buoyancy due to the low skill level required from instructors up to the CD/IT level.

EDIT: If I were elected World Dominator (yes, I realize there is no such political office but work with me here), I would require all CDs/ITs take GUE fundies and earn a tech pass in order to qualify to teach new instructors.

 

[TMHeimer]

Doesn’t help that PADI teaches buoyancy as a seated Buddha position. Ridiculous. When In real life diving is this appropriate? No where. Should be starting with fin pivot then next exercise is horizontal neutral buoyancy. And it doesn’t help that PADI teaches breath deep for efficiency. Put an new or relatively new diver in 15-20 feet of water and they are all over the place.

Some will disagree about the fin pivot (is it still in the OW course?)-- because fin tips are on the bottom. I don't see how it really can hurt.

 

[TMHeimer]

It isn't just PADI. But mainstream agencies overall.

Never been to Thailand, but in my area (Puget Sound), I see divers with many dives still grossly overweighted. Heck, I was still overweighted until I took GUE fundies (380 dives), and I was a PADI IDC Staff Instructor by that time (inactive now). I dramatically changed how I taught open water and broke away completely from the training I had received earlier from mainstream agencies. I'll agree that there is potential for new divers to shed some weight (we need a lot here) but most are still grossly overweighted (again, my observation in my area). When the water is warm enough that no exposure protection is necessary, then "oops, I forgot my weights and oh, I can still dive" is one way they learn that they don't need so much weight.

I'm actually working on a blog series on how I teach NB/T in open water. Just a couple more pics and I'm submitting the final draft to my agency. Initial draft was well received.

We just have to weight divers properly from the start. There's a good reason why proper weighting was in DAN's 2016 report which had a list of ten changes they'd like to see.

I agree with your posts here and in the recent other neutral thread. Will play Devil's advocate-- You were still overweighted until you took GUE fundies at 380 dives-- you never did a weight check before that?
I admit I think I've only really done one-- at the time of my first couple of dives. Due to a new wetsuit 10 years later, I didn't even bother to do a check--just added 5 pounds due to the better "integrity" of the new suit. That brought me back to the original 42 pounds with my old suit as a newbie.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree with your posts here and in the recent other neutral thread. Will play Devil's advocate-- You were still overweighted until you took GUE fundies at 380 dives-- you never did a weight check before that?
I admit I think I've only really done one-- at the time of my first couple of dives. Due to a new wetsuit 10 years later, I didn't even bother to do a check--just added 5 pounds due to the better "integrity" of the new suit. That brought me back to the original 42 pounds with my old suit as a newbie.

I didn't do proper weight checks, i.e, nearly empty cylinder, shallowest stop, empty wing, empty dry suit, etc, etc.

Some will disagree about the fin pivot (is it still in the OW course?)-- because fin tips are on the bottom. I don't see how it really can hurt.

Fin tips are a practice that need to stop. When a diver's fin tips touch the bottom, they are foot heavy and not neutrally buoyant.