From pivot to perfect.

[Coztick]

Recent threads have debated how to teach perfect trim and buoyancy. Nobody seems to endorse the fin pivot exercise but I think it just needs follow though into a trim exercise.
Have the students do the pivot exercise while holding a 2 or 3lb weight in each hand.
Once the student has enough gas in their BC to rise and fall by breathing, have them move the weight in their hands towards their head until their fin tips are lifting off as soon as they ascend.
Perfect trim isn't a skill, it's a matter of perfect weight vs lift distribution. Why would you try to teach scuba without providing the student ballance?
It's like learning to ride with flat tires.
Why would ya?

Cheers

 

[jlcnuke]

Recent threads have debated how to teach perfect trim and buoyancy. Nobody seems to endorse the fin pivot exercise but I think it just needs follow though into a trim exercise.
Have the students do the pivot exercise while holding a 2 or 3lb weight in each hand.
Once the student has enough gas in their BC to rise and fall by breathing, have them move the weight in their hands towards their head until their fin tips are lifting off as soon as they ascend.
Perfect trim isn't a skill, it's a matter of perfect weight vs lift distribution. Why would you try to teach scuba without providing the student ballance?
It's like learning to ride with flat tires.
Why would ya?

Cheers

Why would most students need weights at their head to achieve proper trim?? They're certainly not going to go diving on a reef holding weights at their head, so why train them that way? Just teach them to get in trim and neutrally buoyant properly from the start.

 

[EFX]

When I took my OW we did the fin pivot at the bottom of the pool. My recollection is that the exercise was to demonstrate being neutrally buoyant. It had nothing to do with proper weighting or trim. That came $250 later.

 

[Coztick]

Why would most students need weights at their head to achieve proper trim?? They're certainly not going to go diving on a reef holding weights at their head, so why train them that way? Just teach them to get in trim and neutrally buoyant properly from the start.

Yeah, not suggesting holding weight while diving. Only to demonstrate the importance of weight placement.
Moving weight TOWARD their head will lift their legs into horizontal trim. From there, they learn how to tune their weighting.
You don't just "get in trim", you weight yourself for neutral trim.
The magic starts when the effort stops!

 

[Coztick]

When I took my OW we did the fin pivot at the bottom of the pool. My recollection is that the exercise was to demonstrate being neutrally buoyant. It had nothing to do with proper weighting or trim. That came $250 later.

RIGHT?
Heck, you're lucky if you got it in AOW!
My AOW PPB test was in the Buddha pose!
Just so I didn't move?
I discovered perfect trim while playing with sidemount weighting, so $750 after OW.
They had us right there...
A little tweak and we would have hung like a tech diver!
The weight in the hands would also discourage sculling...

Cheers

 

[decompression]

Recent threads have debated how to teach perfect trim and buoyancy. Nobody seems to endorse the fin pivot exercise but I think it just needs follow though into a trim exercise.
Have the students do the pivot exercise while holding a 2 or 3lb weight in each hand.
Once the student has enough gas in their BC to rise and fall by breathing, have them move the weight in their hands towards their head until their fin tips are lifting off as soon as they ascend.
Perfect trim isn't a skill, it's a matter of perfect weight vs lift distribution. Why would you try to teach scuba without providing the student ballance?
It's like learning to ride with flat tires.
Why would ya?

Cheers

The fin pivot is counterintuitive to getting the proper body position. The body should be in trim while moving through the water column, therefore the student should “feel” the sensation of being trim while breathing, subsequently controlling depth by lungs only.

The Fin pivot introduces 2 negatives, touching the bottom and a fin heavy, non trim position.

Best to avoid fin pivots entirely and focus on controlling breathing while in trim position.

If you’re concerned about violating standards, there are other agencies that don’t use fin pivot and I’m sure others have found ways to meet standards to fit the big agency.

 

[EFX]

Heck, you're lucky if you got it in AOW!
My AOW PPB test was in the Buddha pose!

Actually, I started working on getting my weight right, right after completing OW. Here's a link to a post that summarized what I did. So, I got the weight right before I took PADI's PPB. In that class we worked exclusively on trim which I had not worked on before. It was more like spending $500+ to get the weight and trim perfected after OW (I took AOW and then PPB). In PPB (Peak Performance Buoyancy) my instructor had me remain absolutely still. To my surprise I went completely head down like a trumpet fish. The CD of the dive shop had a body type similar to mine and decided I needed 2+2 lbs in the upper trim pockets of my ScubaPro Nighthawk BCD. Once those weights were moved to the waist pockets my trim was perfected and I added 15 minutes to a typical dive I was doing at that time. From that point on, getting the neutral buoyancy perfected was much easier. For me, it was around 70 dives where I felt really comfortable and to the point where I felt I had mastered neutral buoyancy.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I had a mom and her 10 yr old daughter in an Intro last weekend. 15 minutes into the experience both were swimming neutral and horizontal. You don't need to use weights to demonstrate things that will affect trim. Moving the hands from close to the chest to extended out in front will do that.
They start their OW class next Saturday. First session will be buoyancy and trim using body position/posture and lung volume with snorkel gear.

 

[Coztick]

The fin pivot is counterintuitive to getting the proper body position. The body should be in trim while moving through the water column, therefore the student should “feel” the sensation of being trim while breathing, subsequently controlling depth by lungs only.

The Fin pivot introduces 2 negatives, touching the bottom and a fin heavy, non trim position.

Best to avoid fin pivots entirely and focus on controlling breathing while in trim position.

If you’re concerned about violating standards, there are other agencies that don’t use fin pivot and I’m sure others have found ways to meet standards to fit the big agency.

Can't "moving through the water" itself affect trim? Wouldn't perfect trim/weighting be most obvious to the student while hanging motionless?
Even 2lbs moved 1 foot will affect trim if motionless. This would be unnoticed while swimming.
"The Fin pivot introduces 2 negatives,"
YES! Touching the bottom of a pool once and FIN HEAVY.
At that moment a little weight transfer upward, the fins come up and good trim is achieved. Now while they focus on breathing they can FEEL perfect trim.
Alternatively, the instructor could make the adjustment with soft weights on the divers upper back. 3 posts later, Jim says just the arms forward is enough.
Taking OW, I found the pivot easy and effective to learn the effect breathing has on buoyancy. I just wish they would have corrected my weighting at that moment.
I was just suggesting that perfect trim could be incorporated the moment neutral buoyancy is achieved very easily to give a student more control and confidence.
I was a little fin heavy and had to scull with fins to hover but got by fine for my first 25 dives assuming that was normal.
Thinking back, it probably had something to do with the fatigue I felt on my first few trips that pushed me to try sm, so all's well.
I'm no instructor, never will be. I certainly respect your input. "From the mouths of babies.." they say. Just thought it might be useful. It made more sense than the floating limbo bar in another thread.

Cheers!

 

[tursiops]

The fin pivot is counterintuitive to getting the proper body position. The body should be in trim while moving through the water column, therefore the student should “feel” the sensation of being trim while breathing, subsequently controlling depth by lungs only.

The Fin pivot introduces 2 negatives, touching the bottom and a fin heavy, non trim position.

Best to avoid fin pivots entirely and focus on controlling breathing while in trim position.

If you’re concerned about violating standards, there are other agencies that don’t use fin pivot and I’m sure others have found ways to meet standards to fit the big agency.

PADI does not require fin pivots.