Ranking of Scuba Specialty courses

[tursiops]

I mean that a typical LDS (Local Dive Shop) would offer mentoring at a small fee for people to have some coaching to perfect skills. Take the typical day in the life of an instructor & divemaster; OW, AOW courses to teach. There's gaps in that day which could be used to do "an hour" with another bunch of people who want some coaching; buoyancy, finning, etc. Even going over some old OW/AOW skills. Or prepping for a Rescue Diver course. Or just plain want to be better!

If the LDS did any tech courses, then there's tons of opportunities for coaching. Shutdowns, finning and all the basics need lots of practice!

The principle of paying is important: if you give it away, it ceases to have a value. Even a couple or three people paying $10 for an hour would be valuable.

But as @wetb4igetinthewater said, it's not something that would sell in a "resort", but a longer-term relationship as per "local" divers.

This is not a bad idea. Perhaps that is why it is being done in a number of places.

 

[TMHeimer]

I mean that a typical LDS (Local Dive Shop) would offer mentoring at a small fee for people to have some coaching to perfect skills. Take the typical day in the life of an instructor & divemaster; OW, AOW courses to teach. There's gaps in that day which could be used to do "an hour" with another bunch of people who want some coaching; buoyancy, finning, etc. Even going over some old OW/AOW skills. Or prepping for a Rescue Diver course. Or just plain want to be better!

If the LDS did any tech courses, then there's tons of opportunities for coaching. Shutdowns, finning and all the basics need lots of practice!

The principle of paying is important: if you give it away, it ceases to have a value. Even a couple or three people paying $10 for an hour would be valuable.

But as @wetb4igetinthewater said, it's not something that would sell in a "resort", but a longer-term relationship as per "local" divers.

I agree this is a good idea, assuming the pay is reasonable for the instructor. I can foresee some blips maybe, such as timing--
The OW/AOW course runs late, so the hour set aside for additional tutoring will be delayed. But if people are flexible (and pool time allows), it could be a good thing.

 

[Bowers]

Being in the midwest, drysuit is first, then nitrox and sidemount. The core classes teach ppb, navigation and increased depth so they are not sought after stand alone specialties.

 

[Telvar]

No no and thrice no!

The core skills (buoyancy, finning and trim) are vital for effective diving. These are frequently appalling in recreational divers AND DiveMASTERS. Nailing core skills makes diving safer, massively easier, facilitates new skills (photography, decompression diving) and protects both others (silty scissor kick!) and the environment (no touch).

No person can (or should if being pedantic) move on to more advanced diving until they have excellent core skills. Especially if doing tecreational** diving, such as wreck penetration, deco, multi-gas, photography.

The dire state of DiveMASTER skills is the root of this. They should all have good to exemplary core skills, especially ALL finning techniques: flutter, frog, helicopter turns, back-finning, etc.

** Tecreational -- more advanced recreational, but encroaching in to technical diving. Deeper, additional gas, moderate deco, overhead (wrecks, caverns). i.e. pushing it to the limits of recreational.

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree more with you. My point is that most of the PPB course is useless. Learning buoyancy isn't something you get from 2 dives. It's something you get better at with every dive you make and takes a hell of a lot more than 2 dives. Although it's a very popular course, to me its not that useful. I'd rather focus on topics that you really need training on to learn it and not learn by doing.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree more with you. My point is that most of the PPB course is useless. Learning buoyancy isn't something you get from 2 dives. It's something you get better at with every dive you make and takes a hell of a lot more than 2 dives. Although it's a very popular course, to me its not that useful. I'd rather focus on topics that you really need training on to learn it and not learn by doing.

Well, everything in PPB is covered in OW.

And I'd argue that a competent instructor can fix the poor OW class a student had by focusing on proper weighting and weight distribution. Of course you did say most, and there I agree. But it has potential to be useful, just the probability of being low. Hence I advocate people to take a GUE fundies like course after OW, as the probability of that not being a good course is equally low as PPB being a good one.

 

[tursiops]

Well, everything in PPB is covered in OW.

No, not really. For example, different kinds of fin kicks.

 

[TMHeimer]

No, not really. For example, different kinds of fin kicks.

Kicks weren't covered in PPB for me either. Learned frog on my own.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

No, not really. For example, different kinds of fin kicks.

Ok, tell me where in the standards that different fin kicks are being taught.

Section Three:
Confined Water Dive – Buoyancy Clinic
Conduct the optional buoyancy clinic in confi ned water to provide student divers with extra practice at:
• Estimating weight needed for their equipment confi guration using the Basic Weighting Guidelines.
• Visualization skills.
• Conducting predive buoyancy checks.
• Controlled descents, ascents and safety stops.
• Hovering.
• Breath control for fi ne-tuning buoyancy underwater.
• Maneuvering close to the bottom without touching.
• Post dive buoyancy check
Have a variety of weight systems, buoyancy related accessories and BCDs for student divers to try. Divers who have not yet purchased these items will appreciate the opportunity to try them prior to selection.
Conduct
Introduce the tasks and skills from Peak Performance Dive One and have divers practice them. Also use some or all of the following buoyancy challenges during the clinic to reinforce skills:
Challenges
1. Directly from the hover, have divers swim midwater to the outside edge of the pool (or a specifi c point) with their buddy. From there, divers swim underwater
from deep to shallow next to the pool wall (or along a designated course.) During the swim, divers adjust for neutral buoyancy, concentrate on an effi cient
kicking style, practice gliding after kicks and streamline their body/equipment as much as possible. Explain that the goal is to complete two trips around the
pool (or designated course) without any part of their body or equipment touching the bottom or breaking the surface.
2. Divers swim through an obstacle course with weighted PVC pipe, Hula-Hoops™ or other devices. Direct divers to try to swim through the obstacles without touching them.
3. Divers simulate a safety stop by hovering midwater for three minutes.
4. Divers practice one or more of the following: 1) One-finger push-offs off the pool bottom or nonfragile bottom. 2) Sculling forward and backward using minimal hand or fin movement. 3) Dropping weights at the surface. Use soft weights if possible. Be cautious of divers under the weights and of damaging the pool or fragile bottom. Have divers with weight-integrated BCDs reload weights following the manufacturer’s instructions.

B. Peak Performance Buoyancy Open Water Dives
Dive One
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather).
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques prior to the dive to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and, if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Adjust for neutral buoyancy at a predetermined depth.
• Hover for 60 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/finsculling only (rebreathers).
• Make minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba).
• Swim horizontally, while neutrally buoyant without touching the bottom or breaking the surface of the water with equipment or body.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding.
• Adjust weights (trim) and practice hovering in different positions – vertical, horizontal, feet slightly elevated and head slightly elevated.
• Conduct a postdive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.

Dive Two
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather), or based on experience from previous dives.
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a pre- and post-dive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding after each kick.
• Hover for 90 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/fi n sculling only (rebreathers).
• Flood and clear your mask while holding a specific hover depth and compensating for sudden buoyancy changes (rebreather divers only).
• Maneuver as close to a nonliving portion of the bottom (rock, sand, etc.) without touching it and then back away using neutral buoyancy with hand or fin sculling.

You should know that I still have electronic copies of the standards, I do look them up. Or did you think I deleted them all when I left PADI? You think I'm going to take your word at face value?

Now nothing in PADI standards says you can't teach other kicks, but the same applies to open water course.

Or is "One-finger push-offs off the pool bottom" a valuable skill taught in PPB that isn't in OW?

 

[tursiops]

Ok, tell me where in the standards that different fin kicks are being taught.

Section Three:
Confined Water Dive – Buoyancy Clinic
Conduct the optional buoyancy clinic in confi ned water to provide student divers with extra practice at:
• Estimating weight needed for their equipment confi guration using the Basic Weighting Guidelines.
• Visualization skills.
• Conducting predive buoyancy checks.
• Controlled descents, ascents and safety stops.
• Hovering.
• Breath control for fi ne-tuning buoyancy underwater.
• Maneuvering close to the bottom without touching.
• Post dive buoyancy check
Have a variety of weight systems, buoyancy related accessories and BCDs for student divers to try. Divers who have not yet purchased these items will appreciate the opportunity to try them prior to selection.
Conduct
Introduce the tasks and skills from Peak Performance Dive One and have divers practice them. Also use some or all of the following buoyancy challenges during the clinic to reinforce skills:
Challenges
1. Directly from the hover, have divers swim midwater to the outside edge of the pool (or a specifi c point) with their buddy. From there, divers swim underwater
from deep to shallow next to the pool wall (or along a designated course.) During the swim, divers adjust for neutral buoyancy, concentrate on an effi cient
kicking style, practice gliding after kicks and streamline their body/equipment as much as possible. Explain that the goal is to complete two trips around the
pool (or designated course) without any part of their body or equipment touching the bottom or breaking the surface.
2. Divers swim through an obstacle course with weighted PVC pipe, Hula-Hoops™ or other devices. Direct divers to try to swim through the obstacles without touching them.
3. Divers simulate a safety stop by hovering midwater for three minutes.
4. Divers practice one or more of the following: 1) One-finger push-offs off the pool bottom or nonfragile bottom. 2) Sculling forward and backward using minimal hand or fin movement. 3) Dropping weights at the surface. Use soft weights if possible. Be cautious of divers under the weights and of damaging the pool or fragile bottom. Have divers with weight-integrated BCDs reload weights following the manufacturer’s instructions.

B. Peak Performance Buoyancy Open Water Dives
Dive One
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather).
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques prior to the dive to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and, if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Adjust for neutral buoyancy at a predetermined depth.
• Hover for 60 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/finsculling only (rebreathers).
• Make minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba).
• Swim horizontally, while neutrally buoyant without touching the bottom or breaking the surface of the water with equipment or body.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding.
• Adjust weights (trim) and practice hovering in different positions – vertical, horizontal, feet slightly elevated and head slightly elevated.
• Conduct a postdive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.

Dive Two
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather), or based on experience from previous dives.
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a pre- and post-dive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding after each kick.
• Hover for 90 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/fi n sculling only (rebreathers).
• Flood and clear your mask while holding a specific hover depth and compensating for sudden buoyancy changes (rebreather divers only).
• Maneuver as close to a nonliving portion of the bottom (rock, sand, etc.) without touching it and then back away using neutral buoyancy with hand or fin sculling.

You should know that I still have standards, I do look them up. You think I'm going to take your word at face value?

Now nothing in PADI standards says you can't teach other kicks, but the same applies to open water course.

Or is "One-finger push-offs off the pool bottom" a valuable skill taught in PPB that isn't in OW?

I'm going to respond to your question as if you cared, regardless of your snark and PADI-hate and tursiops-hate. I actually respond to your posts not because of you, but because of others who read your posts; I don't want them think your word is gospel.

You've mentioned the two standards where fin kicks come into play:
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding.
• Maneuver as close to a nonliving portion of the bottom (rock, sand, etc.) without touching it and then back away using neutral buoyancy with hand or fin sculling.

The point of the PPB course is that good weighting and trim and buoyancy are not easy for most folks, and they don't get it, and certainly don't get enough practice at it, in OW, especially the pre-modern OW classes that might be taught neutrally-buoyant. PPB gives a good instructor that cares (this is not everyone) a chance to get that student closer to the right weight, closer to good trim, and closer to diving comfortably and relaxed. Some get it quickly; it is a struggle with others. The flutter kick is not the only useful kick, and is useless for that last bullet quoted.

I don't teach OW now that I'm not associated with a shop and don't have a pool available, so all of the students I get (mostly on trips) were trained -- or not -- elsewhere, by somebody else, so you have to work with what you've got. Most need PPB. You can rant all you want about how a student ought to come out of OW with perfect buoyancy and trim. Not gonna happen. So use your time with them to make them better divers, instead of grumping about what their OW class should have been.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm going to respond to your question as if you cared, regardless of your snark and PADI-hate and tursiops-hate. I actually respond to your posts not because of you, but because of others who read your posts; I don't want them think your word is gospel.

You've mentioned the two standards where fin kicks come into play:
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding.
• Maneuver as close to a nonliving portion of the bottom (rock, sand, etc.) without touching it and then back away using neutral buoyancy with hand or fin sculling.

The point of the PPB course is that good weighting and trim and buoyancy are not easy for most folks, and they don't get it, and certainly don't get enough practice at it, in OW, especially the pre-modern OW classes that might be taught neutrally-buoyant. PPB gives a good instructor that cares (this is not everyone) a chance to get that student closer to the right weight, closer to good trim, and closer to diving comfortably and relaxed. Some get it quickly; it is a struggle with others. The flutter kick is not the only useful kick, and is useless for that last bullet quoted.

I don't teach OW now that I'm not associated with a shop and don't have a pool available, so all of the students I get (mostly on trips) were trained -- or not -- elsewhere, by somebody else, so you have to work with what you've got. Most need PPB. You can rant all you want about how a student ought to come out of OW with perfect buoyancy and trim. Not gonna happen. So use your time with them to make them better divers, instead of grumping about what their OW class should have been.

hey, you are right and I am wrong about the fin kicks. I should have done a search for that word. Yes, fin kicks are in it. Funny it was missed not only in my own PPB class but also my IDC. Shrug. Open water CAN include it. PPB requires it. That's a pretty small additional requirement.

But I don't think you are right about the second point. One can flutter kick and use their hands to back up. It is up to the instructor to decide.. I don't hate you, tursiops, whoever you are. I just don't see us ever being friends.

I don't think you see my point is that PPB could be far more extensive. Finning has nothing to do with buoyancy anyway. And flutter kicks are just fine for getting quite close to something. All the weighting stuff is the same as open water.

PPB is simply a bandaid for a poorly taught OW course. It is completely worthless for a properly taught OW class. And I know plenty of PADI instructors who provide just that. And they never teach PPB as a result to their OW students. They only use it for remedial OW training for divers that were poorly taught by someone else.

Why do you think I advocate GUE fundies to people after open water? Even if they have no interest in diving in a BP/W long term, they will still come out a dramatically improved diver and can go back to their jacket style BCD or back inflate if they so wish.