Is it possible to travel responsibly (during a pandemic)?

[KenGordon]

Since you like to throw rocks to the sinner, I am very curious to know what a saint person like you are you doing now? What sacrifices have you done to stop the spread of the pandemic? When would you return to dive? I'll be watching any post / comment you put out here like a hawk to make sure you walk the talk.

I am not throwing rocks. I just think you are deluded to think what your are doing is safe and that not getting infected is any more than luck. I also think that you are putting other people at increased risk.

Personally I am staying home almost exclusively. I am working from home rather than my office and not traveling to the US for work as I would otherwise, which results in lots of remote meetings well after normal working hours and extra friction getting stuff done and transferring knowledge. I don’t take unnecessary risks. In late December and for a large part of January case numbers exploded here. The Kent variant added 0.5 to the r number and going to shops etc without it being strictly necessary is a terrible idea. Instantaneous rates hit about 3% recently.

In the summer, following the end of the initial U.K lockdown and when we were averaging about a dozen deaths/day, I spent several months living on an isolated Scottish island. Once they had reopened ferries, which helped keep the islands safe, I could get there by driving and not needing to stay in hotels or the like. Since I was visiting my parents on the way I completely avoided exposure to people for the weeks before loading the car. I usually live in what was one of the early hotspots. U.K. case number three or four walked into my local hospital and we were seeing doubling rates of three days. The upside of that is that people took it seriously, travel dropped 80% and pubs etc were empty even before they were forced to close. That has changed since of course. People are definitely at the “So what if a bunch of old people die? Open the pubs!” stage now.

The islands had had only 7 cases in a population of 30000. Even though there were almost no cases there people behaved properly, using masks and social distancing.

I could do the occasional shore dive and get out on a RHIB with the locals. I managed 12 dives over 10 weeks. I also managed some dives in Scapa, although that was riskier it involved a hotel, spending time in a car with my buddy. At that time both ends of the journey were in places with low rates. My buddy makes his living diving so I was happy he was minimising his risk.

Taking a look at the curve I was lucky to be in a low incidence place in the lull. The U.K. death rate is unlikely ever to be so low again, even when all the vaccinations have happened. At that time the US had a 7 day moving average of 800 to 1000 deaths a day. Since then we have had “eat out to help out”, special dispensation to kill elders at Christmas and the Kent strain so help us catch up. Real soon now we will open schools which is probably the main source of risk to me personally.

My next booked dive is April 11th 60 miles away. As of late March the local boats will be running for six divers. I will not have been vaccinated so will probably skip it unless numbers improve in a most unlikely way.

 

[uncfnp]

That has been a huge part of the problem over the past year. People “don’t feel sick,” so they feel free to travel. It’s well documented that a significant amount of case growth is due to asymptomatic carriers.

I’m not going to wade into the topic of whether or not people should travel. Just saying that if you’re making that decision based on how you feel...maybe reevaluate that one.

Nope. Not saying that symptom free is a free pass. That is part of the problem. Too many gray areas that people ignore. It is not a yes or no question. It is a matter a probable or possible.

As I said, there are no absolutes, even in testing. Too many times I see people that test negative use that as proof they do not have covid and take that as permission to do whatever it is they want to do anyway without precautions.

(not talking about Dan’s testing requirements that are mandated and he still follows precautions. I am referring to the day to day testing reality that is the “norm” here.)

 

[tursiops]

And here we will have to disagree. Beyond not traveling while sick, I would place vaccination next, both for protection against serious illness and taxing resources while traveling, but also to protect others. Yes, we still need more data and past mistakes have made the powers that be more cautious in recommendations. But preliminary evidence is encouraging for transmission protection. Not absolute, in medicine there are few such things, but enough so that if one plans to travel and they have access to the vaccine, I personally feel it would be irresponsible not to be vacinated, for themselves and others.

There are countries already starting to implement “travel passports” or “green pass” to allow otherwise prohibited activities to those vaccinated. Bidden included orders for government agencies to “asscess the feasibility” in his covid EOs.

I hope you are right. I'm still waiting for data and analysis. All I've seen are press releases and undoubtedly biased reports from the travel industry.

 

[uncfnp]

I hope you are right. I'm still waiting for data and analysis. All I've seen are press releases and undoubtedly biased reports from the travel industry.

Not just me but yes I see your point. Has no weight but many fellow professional associates that I respect believe the vaccine has been underrated in an effort to be conservative in our expectations.

Personal speculation only but I also wonder if the government is relunctant to rely too heavily on vaccination passes because 1) more data needed 2) lack of vaccine and the social inequites this can create 3) increased risk individuals will use it as an excuse not to follow other precaution such as masks and social distancing.

 

[formernuke]

Personal speculation only but I also wonder if the government is relunctant to rely too heavily on vaccination passes because 1) more data needed 2) lack of vaccine and the social inequites this can create 3) increased risk individuals will use it as an excuse not to follow other precaution such as masks and social distancing.

How about unconstitutional

 

[uncfnp]

How about unconstitutional

To answer the question I think you are asking, nope. Can COVID-19 Vaccines Be Mandatory in the U.S. and Who Decides?

But I am not discussing mandatory vaccination but rather travel lessened restrictions with vaccination. Countries requiring certain vaccines prior to travel is well established. Which highlights the possibility that countries beyond the US may require covid vaccination to visit.

 

[Kimela]

To answer the question I think you are asking, nope. Can COVID-19 Vaccines Be Mandatory in the U.S. and Who Decides?

In the article it said that the 1905 case resulted in the person (who didn't want to get vaccinated) paying a fine. If half the country refuses to get the vaccine, will they fine them? Will there be reasonable exemptions (i.e., the person has a chronic illness that makes getting the vaccine dangerous - religious or philosophical exemptions)? This could be very interesting, legally.

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

Not just me but yes I see your point. Has no weight but many fellow professional associates that I respect believe the vaccine has been underrated in an effort to be conservative in our expectations.

Personal speculation only but I also wonder if the government is relunctant to rely too heavily on vaccination passes because 1) more data needed 2) lack of vaccine and the social inequites this can create 3) increased risk individuals will use it as an excuse not to follow other precaution such as masks and social distancing.

This.

 

[peeweediver]

Without going further down the rabbit hole here, there are really two aspects to the vaccination issue. For you, does it make you feel safer to do certain things, such as, dine out, travel, see other people. You get to make that call. The other aspect is whether the other person, a business or a country expects or demands that you be vaccinated before they will: hang out with you, serve you or let you in their country. Our constitution has nothing to do with that. We already require vaccinations for school age children to attend public school, with exceptions. I believe that the vast majority of my country would not support mandating vaccinations. Just not really a popular concept these days. However, whether vaccinations are required to take part in certain activities is a different kettle of fish. For the dive industry, my guess is that mandating vaccinations will not become the norm, but certain countries that are quite strict, Galapagos, Palau, etc., may institute a "You want to come here, get vaccinated".
Time will tell.

Rob

 

[Dan]

I am not throwing rocks. I just think you are deluded to think what your are doing is safe and that not getting infected is any more than luck. I also think that you are putting other people at increased risk.

Personally I am staying home almost exclusively. I am working from home rather than my office and not traveling to the US for work as I would otherwise, which results in lots of remote meetings well after normal working hours and extra friction getting stuff done and transferring knowledge. I don’t take unnecessary risks. In late December and for a large part of January case numbers exploded here. The Kent variant added 0.5 to the r number and going to shops etc without it being strictly necessary is a terrible idea. Instantaneous rates hit about 3% recently.

In the summer, following the end of the initial U.K lockdown and when we were averaging about a dozen deaths/day, I spent several months living on an isolated Scottish island. Once they had reopened ferries, which helped keep the islands safe, I could get there by driving and not needing to stay in hotels or the like. Since I was visiting my parents on the way I completely avoided exposure to people for the weeks before loading the car. I usually live in what was one of the early hotspots. U.K. case number three or four walked into my local hospital and we were seeing doubling rates of three days. The upside of that is that people took it seriously, travel dropped 80% and pubs etc were empty even before they were forced to close. That has changed since of course. People are definitely at the “So what if a bunch of old people die? Open the pubs!” stage now.

The islands had had only 7 cases in a population of 30000. Even though there were almost no cases there people behaved properly, using masks and social distancing.

I could do the occasional shore dive and get out on a RHIB with the locals. I managed 12 dives over 10 weeks. I also managed some dives in Scapa, although that was riskier it involved a hotel, spending time in a car with my buddy. At that time both ends of the journey were in places with low rates. My buddy makes his living diving so I was happy he was minimising his risk.

Taking a look at the curve I was lucky to be in a low incidence place in the lull. The U.K. death rate is unlikely ever to be so low again, even when all the vaccinations have happened. At that time the US had a 7 day moving average of 800 to 1000 deaths a day. Since then we have had “eat out to help out”, special dispensation to kill elders at Christmas and the Kent strain so help us catch up. Real soon now we will open schools which is probably the main source of risk to me personally.

My next booked dive is April 11th 60 miles away. As of late March the local boats will be running for six divers. I will not have been vaccinated so will probably skip it unless numbers improve in a most unlikely way.

Thanks for your reply.

Well, welcome to my "deluded to think what your are doing is safe and that not getting infected is any more than luck" world. What you have just described is what I have been doing since last March, may be more so than you since I worked from home since last March and retired last August.

My social life then was staying home, meeting once a week with 3 relatives and 4 close friends that I know their concern about avoiding of contracting the virus are a much as I am. I visited NO pub / night club nor partying or socializing (not my life style). I'm just a boring & quiet guy, but nuts about diving. I go to grocery twice a month, avoiding those mask deniers who's wearing bandana on the mouth with their noses hanging over the bandana. Since I could not go diving, I started to ride my bicycle 40-80 km 3 times per week.

I supposed to lead a dive trip to Florida last August. I cancelled that trip since I believe that flying any where that does not require a negative PCR testing prior to boarding the flight is very risky, like playing Russian Roulette as @Altamira puts it earlier post. You don't know whom would be sitting next to you for few hours in that airplane.

I also have 78 years old aunt in Florida that I use to visit at least once a year that I did not visit her last year due to the pandemic. I have no parents. So no problem there.

I did not fly to any where last year until December to Costa Rica and Cocos required a negative PCR test. I had trips to Utah, French Polynesia, Florida, Wisconsin, Costa Rica , Mexico, Bahamas and Indonesia all cancelled last year. Those trips are rescheduled to this year. So I am very much focus on NOT contracting the virus and NOT spreading it to others. I'm glad that those destinations are required you to get negative PCR test.

Stay safe!
Irresponsible Idiot & Delusional Dan